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Ketamine lifts rodents' mood only if administered by male researchers

nature.com

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Re: Ketamine lifts rodents' mood only if administered by male researchers

#201

Post by ensignavenger »

SeanDav wrote: post #168
freeflight wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder how practical it would be to automate all the rodent handling/experimenting? Because that seems like it'd be the only way to properly remove such unaccountable influences, like people smelling of cat/giving off different smells and thus influencing the reactions of the animals. Couldn't it also be possible that rodents reacting like that is the result of established practices? I.e.: Rodents get only handled…

Even automation would not solve this issue. If these results are scent related, then it is quite possible that different automation methods would produce different scents, or even the same method, in a different environment / location. This is a fascinating issue.

But you could at least use the same automation methods across different study groups within the same study, eliminating potential confounding variables between your groups.

Re: Ketamine lifts rodents' mood only if administered by male researchers

#202

Post by rdtsc »

blhack wrote: post #193
rdtsc wrote: post #18

It's interesting to think about what this could mean for people. We use these mice because they often are convenient models for humans. Are our moods are just as affected by combinations of lots of little things like these - smells, hormones, chemicals in the cleaners, hair products etc. On the scary side imagine being able to use this for evil. Spray something like this on your product to manipulate people's hormona…

Listen to this interview with Robert Sapolsky. Somewhat of a superstar in this field: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=obmt_PkIfBE (Ignore the person interviewing him)

Thanks, started to listen to it. Interesting stuff.

Heh, the question about the better soccer teams from countries that have higher toxoplasmosis infestation rates. Pretty silly correlation.

Also interesting the idea that males infected with toxo are more attractive to females and since it can spread through sperm it is now a symbiotic relationship. I knew about risky behavior and on, but this was a new thing I haven't heard about before.

Then oxytocin being "exploited" by dogs and pets is strange. Just waiting till the latest phones and cars are sprayed with something that also triggers that.

Re: Ketamine lifts rodents' mood only if administered by male researchers

#203

Post by legohead »

legohead wrote: post #78
Taniwha wrote: post #3

Before anyone who didn't actually read the link goes off at it - this is a peer reviewed, repeated study - mice react to drugs differently depending on the sex of the researcher, don't in a fume hood, do always in a fume hood with a human male's t-shirt. It potentially plays havoc with ALL past experiments with rodents ...

Rodent research is a horrible testing method. This video explains it well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHl0nIdbiLA

Why did I get downvoted? I linked an educational video, and nobody has responded with contrary evidence.

Re: Ketamine lifts rodents' mood only if administered by male researchers

#204

Post by ensignavenger »

timthelion wrote: post #173
chippy wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did read the article. I didn't see that it was peer reviewed nor a repeated study, scientifically speaking. The last few paragraphs also give some (typical) scientific distance on the rhetoric that it will revolutionise ALL past rat experiments. It's still worth a read though. What I found: * It is a science story about findings presented at a meeting. The story is published in Nature, which does do very prestigiou…

I don't think that peer review is a very good metric in this case. Those peers could lose their jobs if rodent research is proven to be unscientific. Requiring research on the scientific merits of rodent research to be peer reviewed is like asking the plumber's union to write the building code. In many American municipalities, the code really is written by the plumbers, and the plumbers write in that water pipes must…

"copper cannot be installed by a non-professional"

Who says? I get your over all point, but I disagree that only "professionals" can install copper pipes. It really isn't that difficult.

Re: Ketamine lifts rodents' mood only if administered by male researchers

#206

Post by nonbel »

SomeStupidPoint wrote: post #194
nonbel wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is also naive. In that case you won't be able to publish your results in prestigious journals and your career will die out. That said, you do learn not to act 100% confident. You need to say "This suggests that" instead of "This proves that", etc. Anyway, the solution to reliable data is simple: Have multiple competing groups try to repeat the work as closely as possible. Now that you have something to hang your…

> This is also naive. In that case you won't be able to publish your results in prestigious journals and your career will die out. Charlatan fortunetellers aren't owed careers as scientists -- if they can't produce reliable, predictive models because they utterly fail to control experiments,then they should have their careers destroyed. We've seen enough damage from corporate leaders and politicians relying on guides…

Sure, just be aware of what you are saying. Over 99% of what gets published is like this. Generations have wasted their careers producing misinformation. It all needs to be redone since these practices began (in some areas of research this is at t=0). Etc.

Re: Ketamine lifts rodents' mood only if administered by male researchers

#207

Post by nonbel »

majewsky wrote: post #200
SomeStupidPoint wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is also naive. In that case you won't be able to publish your results in prestigious journals and your career will die out. Charlatan fortunetellers aren't owed careers as scientists -- if they can't produce reliable, predictive models because they utterly fail to control experiments,then they should have their careers destroyed. We've seen enough damage from corporate leaders and politicians relying on guides…

Consider the consequences of what you're demanding: You'd basically outlaw any research on complex systems. Everything in biology, sociology, archeology, climate science, etc. Is that a reasonable response to the problem at hand?

Why would it be outlawed?

Re: Ketamine lifts rodents' mood only if administered by male researchers

#208

Post by japhy__ryder »

calinet6 wrote: post #172
ComputerGuru wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just wanted to add another anecdote (because the plural of anecdote is, as we all know, data) that your profess isn’t the only one. I’ve heard a few similar stories about guys not being allowed to enter the rodent living chambers besides an initial, introductory visit in the past.

This is really interesting. Clearly they're trying to control for sensitive variables that make little sense even to them, and yet they're still using rodents as subjects and publishing studies likely without mention of these oddities. Not saying everyone is doing it wrong, but wow.

Another thing to consider is epigenetics.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn24677-fear-of-a-smell...

Re: Ketamine lifts rodents' mood only if administered by male researchers

#209

Post by SomeStupidPoint »

majewsky wrote: post #200
SomeStupidPoint wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is also naive. In that case you won't be able to publish your results in prestigious journals and your career will die out. Charlatan fortunetellers aren't owed careers as scientists -- if they can't produce reliable, predictive models because they utterly fail to control experiments,then they should have their careers destroyed. We've seen enough damage from corporate leaders and politicians relying on guides…

Consider the consequences of what you're demanding: You'd basically outlaw any research on complex systems. Everything in biology, sociology, archeology, climate science, etc. Is that a reasonable response to the problem at hand?

No, I would bifurcate research into two classes --

Let's call it 'science' and 'hunches'. (I'm sure marketing people would think of a better name.) There's nothing stopping you from publishing hunches; there's nothing stopping the same journals from publishing science and hunches. It would just be the case that we'd treat publishing a hunch as science as fraud, because you're outright lying about how sure you are.

It is the case that several fields would get (almost entirely) moved from science to hunches, but that would be good! The label will match what's inside.

If we have this split in the product lines, if we have these two tiers (models where we're really sure and complex systems where we only have a working hunch), then we should just own it and put that on the tin.

All I'm asking is people stop labeling composite wood as lumber -- and understandably, a lot of people selling composites act like that would make the sky fall.

Hardly, there's a real demand for both products and both serve a real need. Let's just be honest in our marketing and stop conflating the two.

Re: Ketamine lifts rodents' mood only if administered by male researchers

#210

Post by stevenwoo »

fbarred wrote: post #99
yorwba wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dogs are natural hunters and carnivores, too. I don't see how they are different from cats.

Many dogs are natural hunters, but like bears, pigs, and humans, but unlike cats, dogs are omnivores. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omnivore .

Breeds that were selectively bred in areas without carb sources for humans cannot digest starch effectively - they still are in a way genetically closer to wolves which can only minimally digest starch. (Siberian Huskies/Alaskan Malemutes that we commonly associate with Northern native peoples like the Eskimo off the top of my head)
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