Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Blue-collar wages are surging. Can it last?

economist.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

551–560 of 606 posts

Re: Blue-collar wages are surging. Can it last?

#551

Post by roel_v »

wyclif wrote: post #537
myegorov wrote: post #516

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your career path (and its determinants) mirror mine to an uncanny degree. Nonetheless, I disagree that there's a long-term shortage of skilled labor in the US in general, or that any short-term shortage has its root cause in underdeveloped supply channels. I saw first hand how easy it was to procure non-union labor, even at the height of construction boom circa 2004 (when I left construction trades) or 2015 (when I l…

I was a land surveyor from 2000-2008, it's a subset of civil engineering. But unlike CE, there's a lot of field work and a small amount of office work. In my case I'd say it was anywhere from 80-90% field and 10-20% office. But even though surveying is hardly unskilled labour and usually requires a degree, it was still subject to the same effects the grandparent comment mentions: constant layoffs in winter, culminati…

So what are you saying? Surveyor pay is booming now, or no surveying is needed any more? ('Needed' as in, people are actually paying to get it done, not 'needed' as in 'people theorize that it would be useful')

Re: Blue-collar wages are surging. Can it last?

#552

Post by crankylinuxuser »

golergka wrote: post #533
crankylinuxuser wrote: post #463

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because they're people too, and trying to survive in this perverse game of "Capitalism". I value human rights more than I value state or federal "rights". And in this case, there's more than enough resources to go around. And a second derivative answer - not everyone who came here had a choice.

Calling a game "perverse" is a classic tactic too use when you're losing and can't own up to it. There may be "enough" resources – but they aren't yours to go anywhere. And freedom to do whatever you please with the things you own is the most fundamental human right of all.

> Calling a game "perverse" is a classic tactic too use when you're losing and can't own up to it.

Oh please. You damned straight it's perverse.

How is this not perverse when a director of an agency on aging has to tell elderly clients "Sorry, there's no more money for food this week." ?

How is this not perverse when homeless try to get shelter for the night, and are turned away because there's no beds?

How is this not perverse when we train upcoming high school students to agree to crushing scholastic debt with no recourse or bankruptcy protection?

How is this not perverse that we don't have a true medical system across the USA? Instead we tie it to employment, thus continuing the "Work or Die" ideal, quite literally.

> There may be "enough" resources – but they aren't yours to go anywhere. And freedom to do whatever you please with the things you own is the most fundamental human right of all.

Sure, I'll accept that for simple possessions. Clothes, personal effects, lodging, transportation.

But whereas you're talking of personal stuff, I'm talking about the top income whose top 3 people own collectively more than the bottom 50% of the world. I guess when you can afford to amass money, game the system, buy laws/legislators and rig everything, you do end up with more money. But "it was hard earned". Yeah, uh huh. Keep telling yourself that.

Re: Blue-collar wages are surging. Can it last?

#553

Post by golergka »

crankylinuxuser wrote: post #552
golergka wrote: post #533

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Calling a game "perverse" is a classic tactic too use when you're losing and can't own up to it. There may be "enough" resources – but they aren't yours to go anywhere. And freedom to do whatever you please with the things you own is the most fundamental human right of all.

> Calling a game "perverse" is a classic tactic too use when you're losing and can't own up to it. Oh please. You damned straight it's perverse. How is this not perverse when a director of an agency on aging has to tell elderly clients "Sorry, there's no more money for food this week." ? How is this not perverse when homeless try to get shelter for the night, and are turned away because there's no beds? How is this n…

The perverse game you wouldn't be able to win or lose, regardless of your actions - and your examples prove that it's not the case.

Re: Blue-collar wages are surging. Can it last?

#554

Post by jondubois »

toomanybeersies wrote: post #525
jondubois wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

$400k is what senior executives of major multinational companies get paid. It's also what top surgeons get paid. I highly doubt that blue collar workers get anywhere near that much. If they did, everyone would try to work in that industry because the barrier to entry is comparatively very low.

Tower crane operators in NYC can apparently make up to $500k including benefits. The barrier to entry is not low though, it's incredibly hard to become a crane operator due to the unions.

When I search for salary data for tower crane operators online, it says the salary is around $30k per year.

It sounds like you have to network hard and get very lucky to get that 500k per year salary and it probably doesn't last forever.

I've heard several stories from older people who said that they were earning ridiculous amounts at some point in their lives but it only lasted a couple of years and then their salaries dropped back to average ranges once their contract ran out and started working for normal companies again.

Salaries don't necessarily keep going up based on experience.

Re: Blue-collar wages are surging. Can it last?

#555

Post by brianwawok »

ceejayoz wrote: post #237
bluGill wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The return delivery costs are as much as the cost of the tools themselves. I always tell people wanting to do a job themselves that the first time your costs are the same as hiring a pro, but the second time you own the tools and it is just time.

Unless, of course, I'm so incompetent that I accidentally cut a hole in a load-bearing wall, broke the tools, and had to call a pro in to fix it all.

Been there done that.

Re: Blue-collar wages are surging. Can it last?

#556

Post by brianwawok »

westbywest wrote: post #318
thanatropism wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What, can't a tradesman certify that a job was done to code remotely? We allow people to get degrees online. Of course, some things (is the screw really tight?) can't be verified by video only, but possibly one could devise smarter tools like pressure gauges and some such that can be shown over a video call.

The licenses tradesmen carry also tend to be paired with some sort of insurance or bond to back up the fitness of their work. Were it my plumber's license and liability coverage, for example, I'd be hesitate to approve a sweated pipe weld just from video footage. And the market for cheap sonar/magnetic gadgetry or whatever for laypersons to inspect the welds on bathroom plumbing probably just isn't there.

With shark bite you hardly need to weld anymore.

Re: Blue-collar wages are surging. Can it last?

#557

Post by alexpotato »

zippergz wrote: post #332
gjem97 wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always find it a bit strange when people talk about shortages of non-price-controlled goods and services. When you say that the industry is "short on construction workers", there's an implicit "who will work for what we used to pay them." It seems to me like it's someone who hires in that industry trying to entice more talent to come help lower the price again, rather than an accurate description of the state of th…

In my very limited personal experience, it's not that hard to get a worker to come do a job on my house. It is EXTREMELY hard to get someone who actually does quality work and is reliable. You could argue that I'd get better and more reliable people if I paid them more, but the fact is, I pay them what they ask for. I have very low confidence that just offering to pay double would make a bad worker into a good one.

I used to hire temporary workers all around the country as part of my job as GM of a small travelling pro sports league.

I always found that there is some "market price" where people are decent and paying less gets you less quality and paying more tends to get you better quality.

Specific example: we needed security guards for an event in Las Vegas circa 2006.

  * $150/day got us off duty professional guards who were fantastic
  * $125/day got us college kids/retired folks who were pretty good
  *
I remember Joel Spolsky saying something like "You don't always get what you pay for but it's true enough of the time to be a useful phrase"

Re: Blue-collar wages are surging. Can it last?

#558

Post by crankylinuxuser »

golergka wrote: post #553
crankylinuxuser wrote: post #552

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Calling a game "perverse" is a classic tactic too use when you're losing and can't own up to it. Oh please. You damned straight it's perverse. How is this not perverse when a director of an agency on aging has to tell elderly clients "Sorry, there's no more money for food this week." ? How is this not perverse when homeless try to get shelter for the night, and are turned away because there's no beds? How is this n…

The perverse game you wouldn't be able to win or lose, regardless of your actions - and your examples prove that it's not the case.

So, the "I know you are but what am I?" defense?

Capitalism fails for many. It succeeds for a very few, with most stuck in the cycle of "Work to live, live to work". It's not much different than a slave or indentured servant class where for the necessities of life; Instead of a single owner, I must find an owner who will take me in.

And if you fall through the cracks, it's almost impossible to move back up. I'm sure you can find a Horatio Alger story or 2. They're popular in this country.

     Lose your job? You're not guaranteed a job.
     Business closes? Too bad. 
     Area stricken with poverty because industry left? Well, too bad.

Re: Blue-collar wages are surging. Can it last?

#559

Post by golergka »

crankylinuxuser wrote: post #558
golergka wrote: post #553

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The perverse game you wouldn't be able to win or lose, regardless of your actions - and your examples prove that it's not the case.

So, the "I know you are but what am I?" defense? Capitalism fails for many. It succeeds for a very few, with most stuck in the cycle of "Work to live, live to work". It's not much different than a slave or indentured servant class where for the necessities of life; Instead of a single owner, I must find an owner who will take me in. And if you fall through the cracks, it's almost impossible to move back up. I'm sure…

> So, the "I know you are but what am I?" defense?

Can you elaborate?

> Capitalism fails for many.

Once again, if you fail, it doesn't mean that the system fails. The system's goal is not to make your life good. Why would it be?

Re: Blue-collar wages are surging. Can it last?

#560

Post by autokad »

rdtsc wrote: post #512
neves wrote: post #33

The article says no, but are there any dissented view that sees a causation between Trump policies and the rise in blue collar wages? Please, polite answers only. I'm just a foreigner that want to understand a little more.

Usually, long term who is president doesn't matter much. Like others have pointed out, this looks like the recovery from the housing crash of 2008. http://www.macrotrends.net/1358/dow-jones-industrial-average... However, just to show that with the right zoom level, you can make data show you anything, look at 3 year graph, and it shows that up until Nov 2016, the graph was flat-lining, even with some large dips, but…

yeah i remember that election morning. upset liberals were saying how the market is going to be down 2000 points, etc and pointing to pre-market price changes. having invested before, I know you cant trust pre-market numbers at all, its extremely volatile.

i say that as a fly on the wall. i feel like i am outside some bubble where everyone flips out about the smallest things, and they forget that they did it at all. try asking people about how they flipped out about the premarket trading the day after the election and people are oblivious

Post reply on HN