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Join the Battle for Net Neutrality

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Re: Join the Battle for Net Neutrality

#211
post #63
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some organizations such as the Wikimedia Foundation, Google, and Facebook believe that their services are more important than others. As such, they consider themselves deserving of cheaper, free, or the "fast lane" internet, especially in less developed areas without sufficient infrastructure to serve all websites. The rationale is that providing a limited set of websites for free is better than if those areas have n…

I want to understand this better, but I can't grasp the concept of a "fast lane" in anything but an artificial sense - how can an ISP create a "fast lane" for a website - can't they only create "slow lanes" for everything BUT "fast laned" websites?

The internet is not a single "connection" for an ISP that fans out to all the customers, unless your ISP is only able to get transport from a single peer/provider.

The big ones back-haul to a major hub and then enter in to several peering agreements. Depending on what service/site you use the "best" path will be over one of those peers.

However, this means that there is usually a middle-man-network in between you and the service you want and neither you, your ISP, nor the service can directly control the quality or speed of that network. If Netflix, Hulu and Google all end up with a "best" path on a single peer its going to be bad during prime time even though other services connected on other peers may operate normally.

One version of a "fast lane" (like the one that Comcast and Netflix negotiated) is to remove that middle man and directly peer with the service. This is only available to large services because they need a presence in these major hubs as it usually requires a direct physical connection between edge routers.

Now, no matter how congested their peers get, the "fast lane" service is working well. They have probably also agreed not to charge the actual "market" rate on that link's bandwidth as it is mutually beneficial and the ISP should pass those savings to its users by not counting the service against any data caps etc.

From the outside, this looks like extortion. The reality though is that both sides pursue these kinds of deals all the time because it benefits their customers and therefore their bottom-lines. ISPs push harder for them because services, like Netflix, are incentivized to find the lowest cost transport peer which is usually not the highest quality. When that peering link is bad, customers blame the ISPs not Netflix.

Netflix used to brag about how cheap and cut-rate their cost per gigabyte was. How do you think they got such a good deal? It wasn't by purchasing the best connection to their customers. It was become some sales exec at a tier 1/2 internet transport provider oversold their poor service. We should be just as upset with the overselling of transport over peers as we are about ISPs throttling but, most of the internet citizens don't understand how that works.

Another note, most of the times when people use VPNs to "prove" that their ISP is throttling network capacity for a service, they are simply routing over a different peer (the one that connects to their VPN). In ideal circumstances this is traveling over a sub-optimal path and should suffer a little bit. However, in times of heavy congestion it is like being routed around a traffic jam. It is "very hard" with current routing protocols on the backbone to do this kind of "flow around" for congested paths in real-time for everyone. Single users are manually implementing it by hitting VPNs.

Re: Join the Battle for Net Neutrality

#212
I wish I knew more about wireless/WISP? There has to be a way to provide reliable 1Gbps service to residential areas. If I could find a way to provide such a service, I would certainly look to do it and provide NN myself.

Maybe I could even strike a deal with Netflix/Amazon/Hulu/etc and try to do my own double-play/triple-play sort of thing.

Does anyone have any resources regarding getting 1Gbps bandwidth to the masses?

Re: Join the Battle for Net Neutrality

#213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd rather have the status quo than giving full censorship power to a government agency. Not to mention that fiber is getting to more places each day with most of the densest cities covered now. Looks like the problems Net Neutrality was supposed to protect us from are not as grave as they used to be and that the market kind of sorted itself out. Why give the FCC/Trump full censorship power now and force ISPs to jack…

Net neutrality is the status quo. No one is talking about adding complex new regulation here but you.

> No one is talking about adding complex new regulation here but you.

If you follow a bit about what happened the past 100 years of new government agencies rules is that they have _always_ yes, _always_ grown into thousands and thousands of regulations each year. But yeah, I'm sure this time it won't happen...

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-0MCZ3FJXJJs/UA7zeOEIanI/AAAAAAAAFl...

Re: Join the Battle for Net Neutrality

#214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, not after you lose. I think this time is it. However, it is "merely" a symptom of the US political system not being sensitive to the citizens' wants and needs. Or no longer being a democracy by modern standards, if you want to be dramatic.

>However, it is "merely" a symptom of the US political system not being sensitive to the citizens' wants and needs. No. Stop saying this. It completely muddies the water on what's actually going on here. People DID vote for this. They voted for their reps. And they voted for reps of a very particular political bent. Elections have consequences. The electorate chose this. Freely and willingly. The electorate being com…

> The electorate chose this. Freely and willingly.

I disagree with you.

In political systems that aren't effectively two party systems, parties that listen to what the population wants and needs emerge and get their share of the votes. These parties then get together and form a majority representing these needs in many ways. This makes listening to the population a winning strategy.

The US system is how much can you accommodate corporations held up against how little can you listen to the population and still get away with it. In a two party system, that is a lot.

I could write an example-scenario with two frozen pizza companies vs. 8 frozen pizza companies and which choices you'll end up with for dinner, but I think you get point.

It's called fair competition and America seems to have forgotten its benefits for the general population, both in politics and in business.

Pointing out people as idiots is not a solution. Pushing for systems that work, is.

Re: Join the Battle for Net Neutrality

#215
post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Neutral networks converge on natural monopolies, globally. So a neutral net ends up with Facebook and Google "on top" in every country. This is globalisation in the Naomi Klein sense: the same brands dominating every market. Of course, a non-neutral net ends up with the ISPs as natural monopolies instead, but these are local and a lot closer to the state in most places. How well this is linked to populist anti-global…

Wow, thank you - I've never heard that argument before. I'm not sure I know of an intelligent right-leaning person who thinks monopolies of any kind is a good idea, but I can see the argument being used in a "stepping-stone" sense towards a Republican ideal less regulated environment that would "naturally eradicate" monopolies. I can see it used like that, but I've never heard of it. Of course, that might be because…

> ISPs are closer to the state in most places

Depends on the structure, but a lot of them are inheritors of telcos, which were often nationalised and/or subject to state control, surveillance and censorship. I was thinking particularly of BT and its heir Openreach, which owns all the wires. While they may be privatized the oversight is a lot closer than that of SV startups.

Owning a lot of physical infrastructure and needing to dig up roads requires having a good working relationship with the authorities, at least. Whereas to be Facebook you don't even need a local presence in the country.

Or there are the various US telcos which effectively lobby for either direct monopoly grants from cities or laws against city-level broadband. This kind of thing: https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/02/isp-lobby-has-al...

Re: Join the Battle for Net Neutrality

#216
post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some people cannot move. Period. It may be their monetary situation, or something else. Suggesting that the situation in Syria and Peru is the same as in the US is also rather disingenuous. It is with high probability not. And even if it was so, does that mean the ISP gets the automatic right to fuck over everyone left because they didn't move? Does that right extend to other things? Should water utility not be provi…

> does that mean the ISP gets the automatic right to fuck over everyone left because they didn't move? The fact that they refuse to invest money they will never get back doesn't mean they want to "fuck you over". Have you ever thrown money out of the window just for fun? Well now you understand these ISPs' point of view. > Should water utility not be provided to them because they didn't move? If there's only one pers…

You don't need to maintain billion dollar installations for 5 people. For 5 people the annual cost of running a simple fiber installation can be well below a couple thousand dollars. I think you just have no idea what realistic costs an ISP actual has.

The ISP equipment usually in deployment is incredibly low maintenance and cost. And then "piping the internet" to the customer is exactly 0 cost.

Re: Join the Battle for Net Neutrality

#217
post #85

Is anyone actually against net neutrality? I don't think I've ever seen a con argument.

I've posted this comment before in another thread: I oppose net neutrality regulation. In principle, I don't think there's anything wrong with an ISP prioritizing certain kinds of traffic over others, so long as it does not have an anti-competitive effect. For example, I don't see how Netflix paying Comcast to zero-rate Netflix traffic is fundamentally different from Amazon contracting with mail carriers to subsidize…

Everything you talk about is contrary to the current reality, and it boggles the mind the mental gymnastics you are putting yourself through to get there.

ISPs should be dumb pipes, the end.

Re: Join the Battle for Net Neutrality

#218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, not after you lose. I think this time is it. However, it is "merely" a symptom of the US political system not being sensitive to the citizens' wants and needs. Or no longer being a democracy by modern standards, if you want to be dramatic.

>However, it is "merely" a symptom of the US political system not being sensitive to the citizens' wants and needs. No. Stop saying this. It completely muddies the water on what's actually going on here. People DID vote for this. They voted for their reps. And they voted for reps of a very particular political bent. Elections have consequences. The electorate chose this. Freely and willingly. The electorate being com…

> The U.S. political system is listening to the electorate. Stop pretending it's not.

Relatively it listens more to donors and lobbyists than the average people. That is part of the system because the system has laws that allow it.

When nearly every candidate for high positions is subject to these pressures, they're very difficult to vote away.

I'm not saying the electorate isn't unqualified, divided by wedge issues, or demands and is sold more attention grabbing issues than NN by the media, but it's not the whole story.

Re: Join the Battle for Net Neutrality

#219
post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

May I ask what country that is?

Bosnia & Herzegovina. Serbia also doesn't (but their government uses other mechanisms for online disruption, including DDoS, bot armies, and breaking into websites it doesn't like). And neither does Montenegro. I can't guarantee that the same is true for Croatia as well, but I think that's the case there too. That doesn't say that they don't want to block anything, it's just that they are fighting what they don't lik…

Question: it is my understanding that "hate speech" is banned in Bosnia & Herzegovina. If they don't ban websites. Do they arrest or fine whoever uses "hate speech" online instead?

Re: Join the Battle for Net Neutrality

#220
Apparently, it's quite difficult to maintain net neutrality, yet its advantages to the average citizen seem enormous.

Therefore, shouldn't we fix something else instead? Like the way these laws are established?

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