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Blue-collar wages are surging. Can it last?

economist.com

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Re: Blue-collar wages are surging. Can it last?

#431

Post by turc1656 »

crankylinuxuser wrote: post #382
turc1656 wrote: post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And? That's true of a lot of people, including myself. Do you think that's a new thing? As if not being a productive member of society leading to poverty is this evil new capitalistic creation? Or that pursuing your own ideas should not include the risk it does? It's amazing to me that you choose to work for someone for an agreed upon salary, providing stability and security to you, and then have an issue with the co…

> Do you think that's a new thing? No, but the extreme automation and beginning of human-like skills across all domains of knowledge are a new thing. With automation of the essentials plus a bit more, we can finally start free ourselves from a lifetime of work. The wealthy already have, and choose what they wish to do. I only want that. > As if not being a productive member of society leading to poverty is this evil…

I fully believe that the asymmetry that exists is due nearly entirely to government. It's hard to have big business without big government. And many of the regulations and barriers to entry are created at the hands of government. I take issue with that entity before private business in most cases.

Let's also not forget that the government has effectively stolen a large portion of the additional wealth/productivity generated over the past several decades via deficit spending. Mathematically, that's no different than a tax in the end. The only difference is that the tax is not felt immediately.

FWIW - I worked for a union once due to a peculiarity in one of my employer's older business units to which I was lumped purely due to legacy reasons. It was awful. And I wasn't the only one who thought so. It was one of the rare instances that people actually voted out their union. It happened only when we separated from the older business unit and were split into a separate LLC as part of a new business venture. 74% voted the union out. It was glorious.

Re: Blue-collar wages are surging. Can it last?

#432

Post by s0rce »

Thlom wrote: post #407
seanp2k2 wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Top surgeons? My girlfriend’s cousin is a new doctor in Texas and makes a decent amount >$400k as a brand new doctor at a hospital. “”” The salary figures fall short of numbers reported by other survey groups: a Medical Group Management Association report using 2010 data, found that the average compensation for radiologists was $471,253 and for pediatricians it was $192,148, Kaiser Health News reports. “”” http://tim…

No wonder you spend enormous amounts of money on health care in the states. In Norway most doctors makes just above $100,000. I guess this is more or less comparable to the rest of Europe.

Strict control over the number of training positions and medical school spots appears to keep salaries high.

Re: Blue-collar wages are surging. Can it last?

#433

Post by Frondo »

mindcrime wrote: post #320
opportune wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well ok, but that's up to our votes to decide. You may vote one way and I will vote my way. If you don't want to provide for these people under these circumstances, vote for someone who will roll back welfare. The system wouldn't work if taxes were voluntary (how many people were poor before welfare when charity was the only way people got help?) so I see no moral hazard in coercing people who don't want to support t…

You may vote one way and I will vote my way. "Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner. Liberty is a well-armed sheep contesting the outcome". I see no moral hazard in coercing people and that's the problem. Coercion is inherently immoral as it denies agency, which is the very essence of humanity. Agency / self-control is the fundamental difference between being a human being, and being a…

Coercion isn't immoral any more than breathing is immoral. It's been a part of the human condition since before we were human.

Living in groups--and people are very much social creatures--means there are rules you follow that you didn't necessarily decide on, or ultimately you get kicked out of the group and probably don't continue your genetic line.

Left unqualified, that's kind of a silly claim to make--it sounds good to some but doesn't really get us anywhere.

Re: Blue-collar wages are surging. Can it last?

#434

Post by zedzedb5 »

Thlom wrote: post #407
seanp2k2 wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Top surgeons? My girlfriend’s cousin is a new doctor in Texas and makes a decent amount >$400k as a brand new doctor at a hospital. “”” The salary figures fall short of numbers reported by other survey groups: a Medical Group Management Association report using 2010 data, found that the average compensation for radiologists was $471,253 and for pediatricians it was $192,148, Kaiser Health News reports. “”” http://tim…

No wonder you spend enormous amounts of money on health care in the states. In Norway most doctors makes just above $100,000. I guess this is more or less comparable to the rest of Europe.

Huzzah!!! Nailed it.

Re: Blue-collar wages are surging. Can it last?

#435

Post by prawn »

noobhacker wrote: post #178
moduspol wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there a case at all to be made for personal responsibility when such a large percentage don't even bother to show up? How can one possibly ever get out of poverty if s/he can't even make it to an interview?

You are right that this is a problem with personal responsibility. Your parent comment is also right that this lack of personal responsibility is cultivated or exacerbated by poverty. Personal responsibility is as much a skill as it is a trait. Therefore, if one has neither work experience nor a role model for responsibility, one tends not to have good work ethics. IMO, the solution is thus both to praise personal wo…

Wouldn't surprise me if this was achieved through apps as much as anything else in the future. Imagine an Uber-style app for odd jobs (lawns, etc) that focused on teen/young workers. The app could have gamification or reminders that if you commit to a job, you go hard and complete it well. If you don't have the energy or ability to keep performing jobs to that level, then take on fewer jobs or use a different app.

Re: Blue-collar wages are surging. Can it last?

#436

Post by saturdaysaint »

VLM wrote: post #356
Clubber wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So if there was a test that could tell if you've eaten chocolate in the last 30 days, then you required applicants to not eat chocolate ever, passing that would be an indicator of a good employee? Seems really arbitrary and pointless when you take out all the drug war baggage out of it.

I think it odd that the strongest opposition to testing is from people who clearly don't smoke. Its a test of self introspection and awareness and intelligence, not solely discipline. Its not a simple binary "have you been within 10 meters of the devils weed in the past month T/F" question. To fail a test after 30 days of normal peeing takes something like weeks of Cheech and Chong 2.0 behavior to build up the level…

I used to approach drug tests with this mentality, but legalization and decriminalization across various states will muddy the picture. There will be a lot more everyday partakers as it starts being sold in safe storefronts, in forms that don't stink or make you hack a lung (cute vaporizer pens, delicious edibles). There will be a lot of middle class, white-collar people that prefer a "feel good" gummy bear after work over a beer.

At that point (and a lot of states are already there!), "Jeez, just don't smoke for a few days" doesn't cut it - 30 days is probably a safe guideline. When it comes to this for a lot of fine prospective employees, I would think it's time to reconsider the value of these tests as a proxy for introspection/awareness/intelligence.

Re: Blue-collar wages are surging. Can it last?

#437

Post by jeffdavis »

ramses0 wrote: post #312
southphillyman wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where can one go to learn these "blue collar" skills? As a recent home owner I'm learning first hand how valuable these skills are by way of my wallet. Seems like most people I meet who do these kinds of jobs were "born into it", and learned by helping a family member who was already in the industry. Are there IIT type schools which teach these kinds of things on a part time basis?

Never do anything by yourself which requires a permit (HVAC, Plumbing/Gas, Electrical), unless w.r.t. electrical it's low voltage boxes covered by standard switchplates with the breaker box off. Never do anything structural/load-bearing. Avoid touching window-headers/columns, door-headers/columns, that random beam in the middle of your living room, that random pillar that you wish you know what was for, and that real…

You should learn basic plumbing and electrical if you own a home. Not only does it save money, but it gives you freedom and allows you to evaluate the quality of work done by professionals you hire.

Re: Blue-collar wages are surging. Can it last?

#438

Post by dionidium »

djb_hackernews wrote: post #118
turc1656 wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I imagine what dionidium is getting at is the lack of good, reasonable cause to either not show up or be late. For example, I'm fortunate enough to have a high paying job in the finance industry and our office/company is pretty laid back and very good about the work/life balance thing. But managers here would react in two different ways to people being out late drinking and oversleeping vs. there being a massive acci…

I think what dionidium was getting at was he only had about 20% of the story and filled in the rest in an uncharitable way. If dionidium is not the manager of that employee, dionidium does not deserve or require an excuse or explanation. If they are the manager then this complaint shows a lack of management skills and/or poor office culture. "I'm feeling sleepy and will be in later" is an employee being upfront and d…

> I think what dionidium was getting at was he only had about 20% of the story and filled in the rest in an uncharitable way.

I might say the same thing for this comment :/

Re: Blue-collar wages are surging. Can it last?

#440

Post by dionidium »

toyg wrote: post #85
Y7ZCQtNo39 wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there is some truth to what we're both saying. At my particular company, the koolaid has always been about how innovate and exciting the work is. But you get in and spend a lot of your time fixing bugs and working on old, monolithic codebases. People want to make a difference, employers sell the vision, and then there's this mis-match and you have the disengaged worker. I think the problem is the reality that…

> the reality that most software jobs need skilled workers It's not just skill, it's also a level of creativity that one needs to do things like programming. And that creativity is often absent when the work is too boring.

A lot of people reading this have no doubt bought into this (conveniently flattering) idea that they're creative people doing very difficult work -- and surely some of you really are! -- but a lot of us are just connecting databases to javascript front-ends. It's not composing a symphony.

I assure you it can be done at 9AM when you're a little tired.

Whether or not you should have to be at work at 9AM is another matter, but this idea that you can't possibly get anything useful done unless you're in the zone has been oversold.

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