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How Politics and Bad Decisions Starved New York’s Subways

nytimes.com

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Re: How Politics and Bad Decisions Starved New York’s Subways

#241

Post by mabbo »

Froyoh wrote: post #193
mabbo wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone in Toronto loves to complain about the TTC, but the few lines we have here are pretty reliable. We just need to expand the system further. The Eglinton line and the Finch LRT will help.

I'm quite shocked people think Toronto's transit system is on par with London

It's a matter of population and density, imho.

Toronto has mostly low-density housing, with spots of very high density- generally, around subway stations. From a plane the other day, I noticed you can see all the subway lines from a very far distance just by looking for lines made of tall building clusters. This is a feedback relationship though- where there is density, we put subway lines, and where there are subway stations people build more density.

London, by contrast, has more of a medium-density everywhere. You could put a tube station just about anywhere in London and you'd have a large number of people who can and would walk to it.

Still, I'm quite happy with the quality of the lines we do have. I just hope that as we build more, that can be maintained.

Re: How Politics and Bad Decisions Starved New York’s Subways

#242

Post by alistairSH »

Xorlev wrote: post #221
zwischenzug wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This was my experience of the US as well. Not only the state of the roads, but the poor quality of the buildings, and the incredible number of power cuts. It was more reminiscent to me of the third world than the richest country in the world.

US is a huge place, so experiences don’t generalize well. You’ll have to state the region and probably the city you visited for your statement to have any meaning.

Agreed. My home (outside DC) rarely has power cuts - maybe once every 3rd year during a heavy snowfall or other major weather event. And it's almost always repaired within an hour or two.

My office has more frequent outages, but that's due to heavy construction in the area (shouldn't happen, but it does, I guess).

Re: How Politics and Bad Decisions Starved New York’s Subways

#243

Post by crazygringo »

camillomiller wrote: post #122

New York's transport is baffling to me. The lack of a proper subway or special express train option to get quickly to the airports is doubly baffling. I guess the cross-state jurisdiction is one of the issues with Newark, but the AirTrain solution over at JFK is way subpar if compared to other major cities. I've been there twice in a few months and it's simply a disaster. 2.5 hrs by car to get to Newark from Williams…

What are you talking about?

From Penn St you take the NJ Transit train to Newark airport, or the LIRR train to Jamaica where you transfer to the AirTrain which brings you to your desired terminal at JFK.

LaGuardia doesn't have a train option though.

But yeah, taking a car from Newark to Williamburg in the afternoon, I guess you've learned not to do that again. :) NJ Transit is your friend.

Re: How Politics and Bad Decisions Starved New York’s Subways

#244

Post by Bartweiss »

flexie wrote: post #114
notmtaemployee wrote: post #38

The MTA's problems begin and end at a weak senior management unwilling to standup to Cuomo's frivolous micromanagement and a transit union unwilling to modernize. Politicians should be pushing for serious procurement and labor work rule reforms, otherwise the systemic managerial and operational deficiencies will ensure that the deterioration of service we see now will repeat it self in 5 to 10 years, regardless of ho…

When is the last time America built any impressive infrastructure? I'd say in the 70s. Most airports, most of the interstate highway network, most subway systems, bridges, tunnels, and dams were built from the 1930s and on to the 1970s. The railroads are even older. And after that; Silence. It's like you didn't even care to maintain it. First time I arrived in America, I was taken aback by how old and run down everyt…

> And after that; Silence. It's like you didn't even care to maintain it.

I'm not sure the overall comparison here holds, but this is overwhelmingly true. America has made a huge amount of funding available for new infrastructure, while constantly underbudgeting (and underspending) on maintenance. The result is a steadily growing liability that would render most suburbs and many cities insolvent if depreciation were honestly accounted for. [1]

The founder of Strong Towns was in fact a civil engineer who started the group in a fit of remorse over doing exactly that. [2] Hired to repair a suburban drainage system, he realized that the maintenance was too expensive for the town to pay, and federal grants were unavailable for small-scale maintenance. So instead he found a massive grant (9x the maintenance cost) to expand and modernize the system. It covered costs, but set up a needlessly large system with vastly more costs to cover down the road.

This is basically how all urban and transit infrastructure gets done here. Partly for cultural reasons, but largely for financial ones: you can't get emergency funding for new construction, but if you spend maintenance money on upgrades and expansions, then you can go begging for emergency repair funds on what you've built. [3]

[1] https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2017/1/9/the-real-reason...

[2] http://time.com/3031079/suburbs-will-die-sprawl/

[3] https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2017/6/4/this-is-why-inf...

Re: How Politics and Bad Decisions Starved New York’s Subways

#245

Post by exceptionalism »

stult wrote: post #224
flexie wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When is the last time America built any impressive infrastructure? I'd say in the 70s. Most airports, most of the interstate highway network, most subway systems, bridges, tunnels, and dams were built from the 1930s and on to the 1970s. The railroads are even older. And after that; Silence. It's like you didn't even care to maintain it. First time I arrived in America, I was taken aback by how old and run down everyt…

Well, you're ignoring massive swathes of infrastructure types. Containerization has led to a complete revamping of US ports during that period. The electrical infrastructure has been massively upgraded, including a huge decrease in coal fired plants. While passenger trains haven't been improved at all, freight train usage has grown rapidly and the already very extensive rail lines have been maintained (conflicting de…

None of that infrasture is unique, impressive or better done than in Europe.

The point is that Europe did all that and more.

By the looks of it Europe just does public infrastructure better.

Re: How Politics and Bad Decisions Starved New York’s Subways

#246

Post by flexie »

stult wrote: post #224
flexie wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When is the last time America built any impressive infrastructure? I'd say in the 70s. Most airports, most of the interstate highway network, most subway systems, bridges, tunnels, and dams were built from the 1930s and on to the 1970s. The railroads are even older. And after that; Silence. It's like you didn't even care to maintain it. First time I arrived in America, I was taken aback by how old and run down everyt…

Well, you're ignoring massive swathes of infrastructure types. Containerization has led to a complete revamping of US ports during that period. The electrical infrastructure has been massively upgraded, including a huge decrease in coal fired plants. While passenger trains haven't been improved at all, freight train usage has grown rapidly and the already very extensive rail lines have been maintained (conflicting de…

Containers, cell phone networks, the Internet, internet banking etc is infrastructure that has been built and implemented in the rest of the Western World as well, many places to a higher degree or more advanced than in the US, while still maintaining and expanding roads, rails, electrical grid, subways and airports.

You are right that the US has lower population density than most of Europe, but Canada doesn't and it doesn't have the same lack of infrastructure maintenance as the US.

Re: How Politics and Bad Decisions Starved New York’s Subways

#247

Post by freeone3000 »

lmm wrote: post #173
matt4077 wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As your quote points out: these are state-run businesses. I'm sceptical of the sate running ski resorts. But ignoring that for a second, it's not out of the ordinary to cover a loss that was the result from extraordinary events such as a warm winter. Presumably, they didn't have to bail them out in other years, meaning they ran a profit in other years.

The state central government bailing out a state-run business is fine. Getting the state transport authority to bail out a business unrelated to transport seems obviously wrong.

Okay, so instead the money should go into general fund, and the money from general fund should pay for the ski resort? I don't see a practical difference.

Re: How Politics and Bad Decisions Starved New York’s Subways

#248

Post by Bartweiss »

stult wrote: post #224
flexie wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When is the last time America built any impressive infrastructure? I'd say in the 70s. Most airports, most of the interstate highway network, most subway systems, bridges, tunnels, and dams were built from the 1930s and on to the 1970s. The railroads are even older. And after that; Silence. It's like you didn't even care to maintain it. First time I arrived in America, I was taken aback by how old and run down everyt…

Well, you're ignoring massive swathes of infrastructure types. Containerization has led to a complete revamping of US ports during that period. The electrical infrastructure has been massively upgraded, including a huge decrease in coal fired plants. While passenger trains haven't been improved at all, freight train usage has grown rapidly and the already very extensive rail lines have been maintained (conflicting de…

This is an undervalued point, I'm glad it was added here.

I agree with the parent poster that infrastructure like roads, drainage systems, and passenger trains are built with minimal planning for maintenance and support, but it is worth remembering that those systems aren't the end of the story.

Train usage in particular is a misleading complaint. It's true that the US has worse passenger train support than many nations, but that largely comes down to a sensible cost-benefit choice. The US isn't especially well-suited to train travel - lots of obstacles, diffuse populations that require branching tracks or non-train final steps, long distance travel that requires sleeper cars. So instead, we have an exceptionally large amount of freightage on trains. It's a vastly more natural use - scheduled, hub-to-hub transit, bulky products, no need for food/sleep provisioning - but it's less visible so it disappears from the conversation.

Re: How Politics and Bad Decisions Starved New York’s Subways

#249

Post by heavenlyblue »

flexie wrote: post #246
stult wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, you're ignoring massive swathes of infrastructure types. Containerization has led to a complete revamping of US ports during that period. The electrical infrastructure has been massively upgraded, including a huge decrease in coal fired plants. While passenger trains haven't been improved at all, freight train usage has grown rapidly and the already very extensive rail lines have been maintained (conflicting de…

Containers, cell phone networks, the Internet, internet banking etc is infrastructure that has been built and implemented in the rest of the Western World as well, many places to a higher degree or more advanced than in the US, while still maintaining and expanding roads, rails, electrical grid, subways and airports. You are right that the US has lower population density than most of Europe, but Canada doesn't and it…

Canada's population is mainly concentrated on the US-Canada border.

Re: How Politics and Bad Decisions Starved New York’s Subways

#250

Post by geodel »

ForHackernews wrote: post #168
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The average MTA employee made $70 thousand in 2010 [1]. That’s nearly $80 thousand today [2]. In those data, one sees Mr. Arthur Harkin, a Long Island Rail Road conductor, made $195,000. ($220 thousand in 2017 dollars.) [1] https://www.empirecenter.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/MTA-... [2] https://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl?cost1=69.489&year1=2...

> The average MTA employee made $70 thousand in 2010 So about the same as the average CRUD app developer? This doesn't seem outrageous to me.

But CRUD app developers are most precious resources on earth. Other people should not really exist after providing services, food, security and on demand rides etc.
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