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Valedictorian Speaks Out Against Schooling in Graduation Speech

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Re: Valedictorian Speaks Out Against Schooling in Graduation Speech

#51

Post by praptak »

aik wrote: post #39
noonespecial wrote: post #36

I have no interests because I saw every subject of study as work, and I excelled at every subject just for the purpose of excelling, not learning. And quite frankly, now I'm scared. A mind that thinks this has nothing to fear.

Explain? She learned how to work the system, not follow any passion of hers. Sure that's definitely a skill and a valuable one, though how much better would it be if it was better focused at something worth something a bit more?

I believe that the speech as a whole is a great demonstration of skill that goes beyond working the system. So far beyond that it even makes the speech look a little self-contradictory.

Re: Valedictorian Speaks Out Against Schooling in Graduation Speech

#52

Post by aik »

megablast wrote: post #20
ars wrote: post #18

There's a lot of selection bias here - the majority (all?) of the readers of this site are far more intelligent than the majority. So all (most? many?) of us will probably agree with her (at least as regarding our own schooling). I know I do. But the trouble, the reality, is that most students can't do what she suggests, using our minds for creativity, and not rote work. There really is a difference in intelligence,…

I don't agree with her, well, sure a little. The fact is, like capitalism, the schooling system is the worst system, except for all the others. And for the majority, it is great for them. I think this is one of the areas where it is so easy to criticize, because of course there are problems, unless someone actually recommends a good alternative system, I just ignore them.

I agree, she didn't offer any alternatives.

There are some very basic concepts that regular schools completely skip that would make all the difference. In my opinion we need classes (for example):

- dedicated to learning how one specifically learns,

- dealing with relating to people/relationships (it's really the main thing a lot of young people think/worry about),

- helping people find passions/things they care about,

- giving people choices and learning through real-world scenarios.

We all agree that a majority of schooling is focused on memorizing random stuff. It's a fact that people learn more effectively by doing, not sitting in a classroom memorizing and theorizing. It only makes sense that most information needs to be placed into contexts for it to be any useful whatsoever (or stick in the first place), and school eliminates any context in most cases. Math is the perfect example of this.

Other than for the reason that you may appear ignorant in random social settings with mindless/pointless conversation, why do we have to learn all the math that we do, history, literature, chemistry, biology, etc.?

Re: Valedictorian Speaks Out Against Schooling in Graduation Speech

#53

Post by loewenskind »

vimalg2 wrote: post #34
TGJ wrote: post #9

All my math classes felt like that. I was simply being told to memorize formulas so that later the teacher could give me numbers and I would plug them in. Rarely was I ever told why I would want to use those formulas. My best class was a chemistry course taught by a 60 year old man that used to test missiles at one point. The grades never really mattered and as long as you knew the vocabulary he would pass you. But w…

This is what i've come to experience myself. Often a solid grasp of the core fundamentals of your domain is more valuable that having a half-baked knowledge of various in-depth areas. Like the old man said, (or didn't) , You can always google it from your exobrain. I even recall Sherlock Holmes' character saying something to that effect; he says something about the human brain having finite usable storage capacity (w…

Yes, that was in the first Sherlock Holmes book if I'm not mistaken. Sherlock let it slip that he still thought the sun revolved around the earth. Watson was outraged at such an outdated belief but Sherlock pointed out how it had no bearing on what he did and therefor wasn't worth keeping up with.

I too was partial to this because I've always worked under a similar assumption (limited space in your head for all the things you need so don't waste it with useless info like who won the super bowl 3 years ago).

Re: Valedictorian Speaks Out Against Schooling in Graduation Speech

#54

Post by noonespecial »

aik wrote: post #39
noonespecial wrote: post #36

I have no interests because I saw every subject of study as work, and I excelled at every subject just for the purpose of excelling, not learning. And quite frankly, now I'm scared. A mind that thinks this has nothing to fear.

Explain? She learned how to work the system, not follow any passion of hers. Sure that's definitely a skill and a valuable one, though how much better would it be if it was better focused at something worth something a bit more?

It shows a level of meta-cognition not normally found in the "valedictorian" types. The fact that she recognized what had happened and that she should be afraid is the reason she should not be.

She's realized that there's more. The battle is nearly won with that. Just realizing that "the matrix has you" is the most important step.

Re: Valedictorian Speaks Out Against Schooling in Graduation Speech

#55

Post by praptak »

To illustrate this idea, doesn't it perturb you to learn about the idea of "critical thinking." Is there really such a thing as "uncritically thinking?"

Reading Edward de Bono has got me convinced that there are several modes of thinking and critical thinking is just one of them. Critical thinking as I understand it means looking for flaws, downsides, logic errors in ideas. It is necessary but it cannot be the only thing that you do - you need to come up with the ideas first.

Re: Valedictorian Speaks Out Against Schooling in Graduation Speech

#56

Post by aik »

moultano wrote: post #45
vimalg2 wrote: post #32

This speech shook me rudely awake , reminded me of my post-college long-term life goal(one that makes a contribution to human wealth). My goal is to build a excellent institution of learning, to train the dreamers and doers of tomorrow(not mutually exclusive). This place would rival the IITs in depth of knowledge imparted but would strive to create more well-rounded individuals who would be masters of their own desti…

>Does anyone in America have the same thought, or are your institutions of higher-learning pretty much satisfactory? Frankly, I think our colleges are pretty much great. We have enough supply that pretty much everyone can go, and the public universities are cheap enough that most can afford it with financial aid and a night job if necessary. The education varies, but you don't often hear people say when they leave co…

The fact that a majority of students enter college having absolutely no idea why they are there beyond the fact that that's what they're supposed to do, is a fairly clear sign that things are very broken. The other day a father got tears in his eyes when I asked him about his daughter who just went off to college. She was clueless. Unrelated to his tears, he was spending 40k/year on her mindlessly and passively attending random classes. How insane is that? I don't care if you can get financial aid, I don't understand how one could claim that's a good investment.

I was in the group feeling 'dumber' (in a way) after college. I wouldn't say I was prevented from learning [random stuff], but I definitely wouldn't attribute my schooling for assisting me in becoming a better and more capable person.

Re: Valedictorian Speaks Out Against Schooling in Graduation Speech

#57

Post by aik »

noonespecial wrote: post #54
aik wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Explain? She learned how to work the system, not follow any passion of hers. Sure that's definitely a skill and a valuable one, though how much better would it be if it was better focused at something worth something a bit more?

It shows a level of meta-cognition not normally found in the "valedictorian" types. The fact that she recognized what had happened and that she should be afraid is the reason she should not be. She's realized that there's more . The battle is nearly won with that. Just realizing that "the matrix has you" is the most important step.

Definitely. Good point. I agree, the fact that she says she's scared (and if she means it) is proof that she will "cure" herself someday. Good luck to her.

Re: Valedictorian Speaks Out Against Schooling in Graduation Speech

#58

Post by kelnos »

loewenskind wrote: post #49
ars wrote: post #18

There's a lot of selection bias here - the majority (all?) of the readers of this site are far more intelligent than the majority. So all (most? many?) of us will probably agree with her (at least as regarding our own schooling). I know I do. But the trouble, the reality, is that most students can't do what she suggests, using our minds for creativity, and not rote work. There really is a difference in intelligence,…

>But the trouble, the reality, is that most students can't do what she suggests, How do you know? Not everyone learns the same way. Personally I find it quite arrogant to assume that you or I are just born with more potential than those who don't end up as "smart". Environment has an enormous effect on learning as does the teaching itself. Lots and lots of students don't understand calculus. But a really talented tea…

I don't buy it. Yes, people learn in different ways, and one teaching method that one person gets perfectly may be entirely inadequate -- or even harmful -- to another person.

But all people are not created equal. All people do not have the same level of intelligence. All people do not have the same potential for success (however you want to define success).

It's nice in a theoretical/feel-good sense to say that everyone has a chance to be great, and all we have to do is figure out that perfect environment to place them in to help them thrive. But this is the real world. People who adapt better to their environment will do better. Doesn't that trait alone make those kinds of people "smarter?"

Now, I'm not saying the American system of schooling couldn't be better (it certainly could), but I don't think there's any one (or more) perfect system that would give everyone an equal chance of being "successful" or "smart" or whatever.

Re: Valedictorian Speaks Out Against Schooling in Graduation Speech

#59

Post by moultano »

aik wrote: post #56
moultano wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Does anyone in America have the same thought, or are your institutions of higher-learning pretty much satisfactory? Frankly, I think our colleges are pretty much great. We have enough supply that pretty much everyone can go, and the public universities are cheap enough that most can afford it with financial aid and a night job if necessary. The education varies, but you don't often hear people say when they leave co…

The fact that a majority of students enter college having absolutely no idea why they are there beyond the fact that that's what they're supposed to do, is a fairly clear sign that things are very broken. The other day a father got tears in his eyes when I asked him about his daughter who just went off to college. She was clueless. Unrelated to his tears, he was spending 40k/year on her mindlessly and passively atten…

>She was clueless. Unrelated to his tears, he was spending 40k/year on her mindlessly and passively attending random classes. How insane is that?

Very insane and totally unnecessary. She could have gone to her state university for 8-9k if she wasn't confident what she was going to get out of it.

Re: Valedictorian Speaks Out Against Schooling in Graduation Speech

#60

Post by GVRV »

ars wrote: post #18

There's a lot of selection bias here - the majority (all?) of the readers of this site are far more intelligent than the majority. So all (most? many?) of us will probably agree with her (at least as regarding our own schooling). I know I do. But the trouble, the reality, is that most students can't do what she suggests, using our minds for creativity, and not rote work. There really is a difference in intelligence,…

I do not agree with her as well. Yes there are problems with the system. Yes, we can have a more liberal flexible system. But the system is designed for everyone.

How many people in your class didn't know the capitals? How many couldn't write a formal letter? How many couldn't solve for x? I'm sure majority of HN thought this was trivial, but many others need this, and the only way they can learn it is through repetitive, boring, tedious tasks.

It would be more helpful if schooling allowed everyone to excel in whatever they wanted to, but the fact is we still need a basic understanding of everything. Yeah, it's easy to subscribe to the romantic view that doodlers will become great artists, but the fact is being a great artist and knowing differential calculus are mutually exclusive. She has a very black or white view of the educational system. She half expects this magical school system that would transform her into this creative genius if she just demands it loudly. She seems afraid of failure, she doesn't want to work hard for it.

If it weren't for these boring tedious tasks, I would've never known about the works of Shakespeare or how cells multiply and many other things I would've never considered studying for, but later found really interesting. The educational system isn't meant to be a one shop stop for your enlightening. It's meant to show you what's possible, what doors you can take. Then you can walk through any door - work on whatever excites you, whatever interests you.

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