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Ghost of WWII: 1940's meticulously overlaid on modern day

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Re: Ghost of WWII: 1940's meticulously overlaid on modern day

#81

Post by euccastro »

lkozma wrote: post #33
ugh wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What Europe can be quite proud of is how not only war was avoided during the last decades but also that war was made less likely over the decades. Suggesting that there could be war between Germany and France would be crazy today but certainly wasn’t always. That’s not just some flimsy anti-war sentiment which can change as new generations take over, that actually has something to do with lasting change initiated by…

That's true, but ultimately what causes wars might have to do with the impulses of people as much as with the "international situation". While institutions can be put in place that seem to make war less likely, people today are not that different from people yesterday.

People almost never want war. They have to be spurred into it by a combination of heavy propaganda and desperate economic circumstances. The first is often enough if the war is one that most citizens will only see on TV, like all 'wars' America has waged since WWII (they are 'wars' in the sense bullfighting is 'fighting'.)

Real wars, on the other hand (e.g., an hypothetical Germany invading France), would require a big crisis.

Which, on the other hand, is almost guaranteed, cyclically, by the current money system, and otherwise easy to summon, by contracting the money supply.

Re: Ghost of WWII: 1940's meticulously overlaid on modern day

#82

Post by ugh »

anamax wrote: post #78
ugh wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The cold war is certainly a factor, as is the quick economic recovery of (West) Germany. I have rather big doubts, though, that US occupation caused West Germany (and France) to become a champion of European integration. I also don’t think that Europe has yet to handle a serious problem. The fall of the Soviet Union is kind of the biggie here. And, sure, the cold war played a large role during the recovery of western…

> I have rather big doubts, though, that US occupation caused West Germany (and France) to become a champion of European integration. US occupation made war involving Germany unthinkable. The US did, at various times, encourage European integration.

Well, sure, the Cold War made a European war (as in: a war between West European nations) unthinkable but it is my very strong suspicion that any European war became much less likely independently of the cold war.

There have been long periods of fragile peace in Europe (one example would be the more than forty years of peace between Germany and France between 1871 and 1914). I don’t think the current European peace is anything like that. The events which led up to WWI were by no means huge problems. A little will, a bit of diplomatic elbow grease, eminently solvable if you really wanted to.

The violent disintegration of Yugoslavia in the 90s did not cause huge conflicts in Western Europe. It even looked as though Western Europe didn’t care all that much for most of the time. A conflict between the relatively unimportant Austria and tiny Serbia – a century ago, also on the Balkans – could, however, start the chain reaction which resulted in WWI. The peace was so fragile that it couldn’t handle a local conflict.

The US did indeed encourage European integration but there is always the question as to whether it works. The US always wanted to bring Europe on a course which would lead it to a peaceful future – you know, so they don’t have to come over every other year and fix everything. That didn’t work so well after WWI and a disillusioned US left Europe.

Re: Ghost of WWII: 1940's meticulously overlaid on modern day

#83

Post by Semiapies »

sliverstorm wrote: post #9
jonursenbach wrote: post #3

Kind of depressing that most of the US will never have something as cool as this due to this countries lack of appreciation for dated architecture.

The buildings that tend to stick around the most seem to be made of rocks. The US doesn't build many buildings with rocks. (for the purposes of this statement, concrete is not a rock)

Except for the stone buildings that are still around. You have to look for them, though.

Re: Ghost of WWII: 1940's meticulously overlaid on modern day

#84

Post by brown9-2 »

ugh wrote: post #82
anamax wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have rather big doubts, though, that US occupation caused West Germany (and France) to become a champion of European integration. US occupation made war involving Germany unthinkable. The US did, at various times, encourage European integration.

Well, sure, the Cold War made a European war (as in: a war between West European nations) unthinkable but it is my very strong suspicion that any European war became much less likely independently of the cold war. There have been long periods of fragile peace in Europe (one example would be the more than forty years of peace between Germany and France between 1871 and 1914). I don’t think the current European peace i…

I think Anamax is referring to war between the East and the West, not between the West and the West.

Re: Ghost of WWII: 1940's meticulously overlaid on modern day

#85

Post by gaius »

euccastro wrote: post #81
lkozma wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's true, but ultimately what causes wars might have to do with the impulses of people as much as with the "international situation". While institutions can be put in place that seem to make war less likely, people today are not that different from people yesterday.

People almost never want war. They have to be spurred into it by a combination of heavy propaganda and desperate economic circumstances. The first is often enough if the war is one that most citizens will only see on TV, like all 'wars' America has waged since WWII (they are 'wars' in the sense bullfighting is 'fighting'.) Real wars, on the other hand (e.g., an hypothetical Germany invading France), would require a b…

Bismarck called these "cabinet wars".

Re: Ghost of WWII: 1940's meticulously overlaid on modern day

#86

Post by microtonal »

jacquesm wrote: post #21
ugh wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What Europe can be quite proud of is how not only war was avoided during the last decades but also that war was made less likely over the decades. Suggesting that there could be war between Germany and France would be crazy today but certainly wasn’t always. That’s not just some flimsy anti-war sentiment which can change as new generations take over, that actually has something to do with lasting change initiated by…

Agreed, it's less likely. But idiots like Wilders are pushing the exact same buttons that a certain Austrian guy did and there is a real risk of him or someone like him rising to power. There are more and louder voices for the break-up of the EU in the last 3 years than I've ever heard in my lifetime.

He's really a nutcase, and a significant portion of a population seem to be willing to vote for a nutcase. I think this applies to any country. It wouldn't be hard to give a recent US example (at least, from the perspective of a non-US citizen).

This group is attracted by populist parties. And research has shown that many Wilders voters favored Rita Verdonk (populist right-wing) and voted SP (fairly extreme left-wing) before.

The interesting question is how large this group is. 1/6 of the voters (Wilders has 24 out of 150 seats)? 1/4? 1/3?

Re: Ghost of WWII: 1940's meticulously overlaid on modern day

#87

Post by brc »

Amnon wrote: post #25
brc wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everything in the world has a U-shaped value curve. Most valuable when it is new, at some point it loses value, may even become worthless. Down the track, it will become priceless and irreplaceable. Note 'value' here isn't strictly monetary, it can be cultural as well. Dropping buildings in the midst of the U never gives things the chance to recover and move past fashion. Most buildings discarded are due to the desig…

> Everything in the world has a U-shaped value curve. On this point, a good thing to do is to keep some of the ubiquitous everyday things when you want to throw them away. Especially outdated technology like, say, old mobile phones. In 50 years they will become a rarity.

True, but you have to count in your holding costs. Even a roman penny (whatever the equivalent was) is not worth that much because there were so many made. Yes, it's worth more now than it was back then, but if you consider the holding costs for that long, it's a losing proposition.

Holding costs you ask? Well, if you pay $10000 sq/ft/yr for your house (renting, buying, whatever) then it 'costs' you a fraction of that to keep stuff in boxes. Then, there is moving costs, insurance costs etc. I know this is an inane example, but the point is to make people realise that hoarding stuff has very real costs, one of which is the 'mental space' that it takes. We all know the feeling that comes from throwing stuff in the bin - that's the other side of the ledger to hanging onto it.

My point being that buildings are worth keeping, as are mobile phones to a mobile phone enthusiast. But we shouldn't just hang onto stuff because it might be worth something one day.

Re: Ghost of WWII: 1940's meticulously overlaid on modern day

#88

Post by Retric »

jonursenbach wrote: post #3

Kind of depressing that most of the US will never have something as cool as this due to this countries lack of appreciation for dated architecture.

I grew up in the USA in a house that is older than the United States. But you need to consider how small the population and it's overall wealth back then. Building a stone house will last a lot longer but we had plenty of forests back so wood was far less expensive for poor people than it was in Europe.

PS: Also the US population was less than 1/7 th of Europe’s 200 years ago.

Re: Ghost of WWII: 1940's meticulously overlaid on modern day

#89

Post by Retric »

sliverstorm wrote: post #9
jonursenbach wrote: post #3

Kind of depressing that most of the US will never have something as cool as this due to this countries lack of appreciation for dated architecture.

The buildings that tend to stick around the most seem to be made of rocks. The US doesn't build many buildings with rocks. (for the purposes of this statement, concrete is not a rock)

I grew up in the USA in a house that is older than the United States. But you need to consider how small the population and its overall wealth back then. Building a stone house will last a lot longer but we had plenty of forests back so wood was far less expensive for poor people than it was in Europe. Now days you don’t see a lot of stone buildings being built in Europe because wood has become cheap there as well.

PS: Also, the US population was around 1/4 th of Frances population 200 years ago and that ratio get's more extreme the further back you go.

Re: Ghost of WWII: 1940's meticulously overlaid on modern day

#90

Post by Retric »

brc wrote: post #87
Amnon wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Everything in the world has a U-shaped value curve. On this point, a good thing to do is to keep some of the ubiquitous everyday things when you want to throw them away. Especially outdated technology like, say, old mobile phones. In 50 years they will become a rarity.

True, but you have to count in your holding costs. Even a roman penny (whatever the equivalent was) is not worth that much because there were so many made. Yes, it's worth more now than it was back then, but if you consider the holding costs for that long, it's a losing proposition. Holding costs you ask? Well, if you pay $10000 sq/ft/yr for your house (renting, buying, whatever) then it 'costs' you a fraction of tha…

As an extreme example; 2 weeks ago a friend of mines floor collapsed under the weight of his record collection. Not that most people try to store ~50k - 100k records in one room, but it does show how limited our ability to store stuff is.

Edit: http://www.journal-news.net/page/content.detail/id/540017.ht... also, he is in good health.

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