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Coders who trade: Wall Street designs its staff for the future

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Re: Coders who trade: Wall Street designs its staff for the future

#111
post #28
post #7

> Eighteen are now enrolled in the program, including Korn. GS has 34k employees. Thousands of traders and probably >10k in IT. 18 people isn't really a revolution. Devs still are second class citizens in banks - the highest earning ones switched to become traders and just do some python/R/VBA on the desk. There are a few hedge funds (Millennium, Two Sigma) where devs are nearly treated as well as traders - would be…

> There are a few hedge funds (Millennium, Two Sigma) where devs are nearly treated as well as traders - would be interested to hear of any place else. Software engineers are treated very well, if not as well as research scientists, at essentially any large or successful quantitative hedge fund. This includes firms like DRW, Optiver, Tower Research, Two Sigma, RenTec, Citadel, etc.

[deleted]

Re: Coders who trade: Wall Street designs its staff for the future

#113
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Coders who understand their domain well are immensely valuable, and are easily worth at least 3x, because they don't over- or under-engineer a solution, and because they can conjure up with technological solutions for problems that nobody else in the company can even conceive of. This is a crucial point to me. Being able to code is good, but being able to code well while also having an intermediate or expert unders…

> It seems strange to me that you would want someone who doesn't have a solid understanding of the nature of the problem (or the solution) to be designing and building the tool, just because they claim to be good tool-makers. I couldn't agree more and this is my main objection to "AI will replace [insert any job here]". A lot of problems are inaccessible to programmers just because not enough of them seem to be willi…

Re your AI thesis, I think it’s the exact opposite. Deterministic, rule-based processing applied to lots of similar data are perfect for AI-fication. It’s all in the computer, and you can kick out to a human-driven exception process when required.

All that physical, real-world stuff you mentioned (cleaning, cooking etc) is vastly more complicated, riddled with experience-driven subjective judgements (is this paper on the floor trash or should I put it back on the desk?) and highly situational. Extremely difficult to generalize and handle with an AI. Not to forget it’s messy stuff in the real world, with engineering and hardware and grease and failures.

Re: Coders who trade: Wall Street designs its staff for the future

#114
post #102

Counter view: I only work in the field because it's the only way in tech to pay rent where I live. I actually hate it, it's of zero value to society and frankly the trading/business side are real assholes under pressure

> zero value to society

What value are financial services? Do you

- have a bank account? checking? savings? money markets?

- monitor your accounts online? do transfers?

- have an investment account? save for retirement?

- have life or disability insurance? pool risks and hedge against them?

- have a city or country that needs to raise money, borrow from others?

- have a company that needs to issue stock for capital investments?

People earn, save, invest, borrow, and build their dreams. Finance makes it possible.

I'm sure you just want to pay the rent, but finance is very competitive and if your firm created no value for society, it would go out of business.

Re: Coders who trade: Wall Street designs its staff for the future

#115
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The trading-coding positions they’re referring to in that article have total comps that can be far greater than 200k pounds.

I'd put it like this, the bulk of positions are around what I quoted. That's for senior people who aren't managing large teams, just run-of-the-mill squaddies. There's also a few jobs where the pay is unlimited. Typically you need a track record but you'll also get a cut of the profits. And then there's management, which is another level as well.

Yeah, I think that’s accurate.

I made the remark primarily because the article discusses career trajectory as one of the motivations for emphasizing the combination of “traders who code.” In essence, they’re advertising that your pay won’t get capped out at the level of “a very good programmer.” Instead, the cap will the higher number of “a very good trader.”

Re: Coders who trade: Wall Street designs its staff for the future

#116

I liked this article because the roll of the programmer on wall street has been going down recently from my perspective. Programmers used to work along side quants and were well respected. This was generally because practicing quants didn't used to be able to program. This was especially true in the 80s and 90's where programmers and quants where almost valued identically as one required the other to make things happ…

I apologize for the off the wall comment. Every time I read about wall street programming, I've got this subliminal voice in the back of my head wondering how anyone could find the motivation to do this work. I'm obviously revealing my biases against the financial industry here. Also, I'm unable to make myself do work if I don't see it contributing to some greater vision or cause. Are there people out there who love…

I do HFT and think about this a lot. I am essentially a middleman that facilitates trading across:

1. Time - I quote buy and sell prices continuously in Microsoft stock trying to earn the spread between them. You want to buy stock and my offer to sell is the cheapest in the market. We trade. Later, someone else comes along to sell and I have the highest bid, so I buy the stock back from them.

In between I'm exposed to price fluctuations, so sometimes I make money and sometimes I lose, but I make a profit on average by charging a spread between my buy/sell prices and predicting small price movements. The two of you could have met had you waited, but I let you lock in a sure thing by bearing risks you didn't want. Think of this like insurance. Odds are you spend more on car insurance than you're expected to receive in payments, otherwise the insurers would go out of business. But you probably prefer spending $1000 a year vs. spending $0 most years and $30000 once in your life.

2. Place - You're in the US and want to buy Nokia stock. Someone in Finland wants to sell for a cheaper price. You don't have access to the European exchanges and she doesn't have access to US exchanges, but I do. I trade against both your orders and earn a couple cents per share in profit. I helped you meet halfway across the world and also keep prices efficient to reflect global supply and demand.

3. Product - You want to invest in an index ETF that holds 40 different stocks. I quote an offer to sell based on where they're trading in the market plus a small profit margin. You buy my offer. I turn around and buy the stocks to hedge my risk.

I'm better at trading than you are and have very low costs. Even considering my profit margin, it's cheaper and less risky for you to buy the ETF from me than 40 individual stocks. I keep the ETF and stock prices aligned and also helped people who wanted to sell stocks get their orders filled. Win win win.

I think the work I do clearly benefits the market and natural investors. All of these trades are competitive too, so I can only earn razor thin margins per trade, or someone else will undercut me.

I do sometimes question how the market picks winners and losers, typically based on speed. Is someone whose system is hundreds of nanoseconds faster more deserving of arbitrage profits? Do high technology costs naturally lead to consolidation and reduced competition? https://faculty.chicagobooth.edu/eric.budish/research/HFT-Fr... this paper has some interesting thoughts on the topic.

FWIW I do think continuous price-time priority trading is flawed in that it creates an arms race in speed, but it's the least bad option. Other mechanisms like batch auctions are even worse. As a thought experiment, consider the #3 ETF trade I described. If I can't immediately hedge my risk and instead go into a batch auction for each stock, how will that affect the price I offer in the ETF?

PS: I do think it's a fun job. You get to play with cool technology and it's like a game that gets harder every day against very skilled opponents. Even the arms race isn't all bad. HFT firms have effectively bankrolled modern innovations in high speed ethernet, FPGAs, low latency kernel bypass networking, etc. that have knock-on benefits for other applications.

Re: Coders who trade: Wall Street designs its staff for the future

#117
post #102

Counter view: I only work in the field because it's the only way in tech to pay rent where I live. I actually hate it, it's of zero value to society and frankly the trading/business side are real assholes under pressure

> zero value to society What value are financial services? Do you - have a bank account? checking? savings? money markets? - monitor your accounts online? do transfers? - have an investment account? save for retirement? - have life or disability insurance? pool risks and hedge against them? - have a city or country that needs to raise money, borrow from others? - have a company that needs to issue stock for capital i…

A lot of that is simply busy work and can in turn be automated. A huge bank like Goldman is essentially a middleman - and middlemen can also be trimmed down. For example, I was just talking to a friend who works at Goldman as a trader. 75% of his job is to answer the phone and deal with clients issues (eg “why is my account frozen?”). His job honestly sounded like a customer service job. He’s also the person who signs off on wire transfers, something that could easily be automated.

So much of the “value” Goldman supposedly creates is due to them creating an artificial need for it.

Re: Coders who trade: Wall Street designs its staff for the future

#118
post #102

Counter view: I only work in the field because it's the only way in tech to pay rent where I live. I actually hate it, it's of zero value to society and frankly the trading/business side are real assholes under pressure

> zero value to society What value are financial services? Do you - have a bank account? checking? savings? money markets? - monitor your accounts online? do transfers? - have an investment account? save for retirement? - have life or disability insurance? pool risks and hedge against them? - have a city or country that needs to raise money, borrow from others? - have a company that needs to issue stock for capital i…

If you want to learn more I’d also suggest reading a book called Flash Boys. It’ll give you huge insight into what OP is talking about.

Re: Coders who trade: Wall Street designs its staff for the future

#119
post #102

Counter view: I only work in the field because it's the only way in tech to pay rent where I live. I actually hate it, it's of zero value to society and frankly the trading/business side are real assholes under pressure

> zero value to society What value are financial services? Do you - have a bank account? checking? savings? money markets? - monitor your accounts online? do transfers? - have an investment account? save for retirement? - have life or disability insurance? pool risks and hedge against them? - have a city or country that needs to raise money, borrow from others? - have a company that needs to issue stock for capital i…

> if your firm created no value for society, it would go out of business.

This is silly wishful thinking. There are plenty of businesses that are sustainably built on screwing people over or simply extracting money from them.

> What value are financial services?

I don't think he's talking about financial services like retail banking. I think he's talking about HFT activities other than market making. Legal front-running, etc.

Re: Coders who trade: Wall Street designs its staff for the future

#120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least two of the financial firms on OP's list are known for working you more than market hours, the average is well into the 60+ hours per week.

Which ones?

A friend works at Virtu and 60 hour weeks are the norm if not more. They're very aggressive wrt managing headcount. Pay is great in absolute terms but pretty low as a % of revenue.

Doesn't mean it's a bad place to work. I have a ton of respect for the business they've built. Their discipline on costs is saving their asses in historically slow market conditions while many competitors are merging or shutting down.

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