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Is software development really a dead-end job after age 35-40?

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Re: Is software development really a dead-end job after age 35-40?

#361

Post by tmat »

auxym wrote: post #358
jordanb wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The big danger is "owning" some domain that falls out of fashion. You might "own" distributed systems and do great for a time, but then companies start transitioning from that architecture and nobody returns your calls anymore. Also I've noticed a lot of sub-fields like computer vision or self driving cars where there's a great deal of nerd interest but very little actual employment. In fact, I have a feeling that co…

>In fact, I have a feeling that computer programming is the stick that's holding the entire STEM tent up---if not for programming as a consolation prize you'd have a whole lot of physics and chemical engineers making lattes at starbucks---and further that web development is the stick that's holding the programming tent up. I swear, I repeat this comment in almost every news article posted about how "We need more STEM…

There is a difference in engineering and programming. An engineer uses programming to solve an engineering problem. If all you can do is program, you're just not as valuable. Programming is one of many tools I use in my every day job as an engineer.

I think this goes back to being an expert in a "domain". Being able to apply programming to that domain is far more valuable.

Re: Is software development really a dead-end job after age 35-40?

#362

Post by brooklyndude2 »

Not dead end, but after decades in this business you realize cabinet making is a most awesome job. And growing food can blow your mind.

Sitting in front of a screen for decades, hunched over? Much more fun to build a chair for someone.

At least in my life.

+60 now. I slept with wires as a baby my mom told me. Coding since almost birth. :-)

Suggestion? Take a woodworking class, glassblowing, sailing.

I focus on Swift now. A beautiful language. Looked at React, Vue, Angular. So much overhead, put that time into learning how to use a router (a real one!) Just my 2 cents. :-)

Re: Is software development really a dead-end job after age 35-40?

#363

Post by auxym »

PeachPlum wrote: post #348
jordanb wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The big danger is "owning" some domain that falls out of fashion. You might "own" distributed systems and do great for a time, but then companies start transitioning from that architecture and nobody returns your calls anymore. Also I've noticed a lot of sub-fields like computer vision or self driving cars where there's a great deal of nerd interest but very little actual employment. In fact, I have a feeling that co…

If you think Web Programming is where the interest is at, you haven't been searching "data analyst" on the job boards

Maybe in SV and other tech centers.

In "flyover country" and the midsize college town I quite enjoy living in, indeed currently returns only a handful of BI-related postings for search terms like data analyst. Web developer returns tens of postings.

Re: Is software development really a dead-end job after age 35-40?

#364

Post by tmat »

zem wrote: post #298
tptacek wrote: post #71

I was going to add this as a reply to a comment downthread but I think it's too important to bury. The fundamental rule of career progression in the technology industry is to position yourself as a domain expert in something more specific than "programming" . It's very difficult to "own" "programming" in a way where you can use scarcity to drive integer multiple increases of the median salary. It is not as difficult…

this worries me sometimes; i have finally (in my early 40s) moved from "specialising in the craft of programming" to getting a job in a domain that excites me (language tooling), but i am now a relative amateur in a field that is full of phds and the like, and i am not sure how large the field itself is going to be in say another 10 years. i've been wondering if i should pick up something entirely different on the si…

Let me tell you, don't worry about it.. You'll use your skills to smoothly transition to something else..

I've been in this industry since copper and telco was hot shit.. I went from doing Telco programming > IT > Web Development > scalable enterprise applications.

Why bother stressing over something you have no control over? Do what you love and the money follows.

Re: Is software development really a dead-end job after age 35-40?

#365

Post by cmrdporcupine »

HN15718653 wrote: post #106
danjoc wrote: post #63

Ageism is more than hiring young. It's letting people go or burning them out as they age too. These companies expect excessive overtime until people burn out. As developers and IT staff age, they self select out of it, because it isn't healthy. https://www.quora.com/How-many-hours-a-week-does-a-typical-G... "10am to 8pm on weekdays, no work on weekends? That's not a lot, not by a long shot." See, they have such stock…

That answer is quite bullshitty. I was there for many years and a few teams, and 8pm was NOT the norm. In fact, it's ludicrous to even imagine a busy Google office at 8pm. 6pm it starts to slow down, by 6:30 half the office is heading out. Some people would get there super early and leave early-ish. Look, at the end of the day it's about getting shit done and COMMITTING CODE. That latter part is something a lot of pe…

Googler here, and can confirm that answer is crap for both my own office and the main campus. There are some people who might work late because they might like to. But I've never a sweatshop pressure here in my 6 years.

It's not a perfect job and in fact I miss working in a place where the velocity is higher. Things in general do not move quickly at Google -- just like other big companies. But it's a job that's entirely compatible with family and a normally balanced life.

Re: Is software development really a dead-end job after age 35-40?

#366

Post by mgkimsal »

DataWorker wrote: post #310
mgkimsal wrote: post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is always risk associated with specialization That might be the reason people demand higher pay, but it wouldn't be the reason why companies pay the higher pay. They pay it because there's a scarcity of people, and/or because they get some multipled value back. No company cares if I've specialized in the 'wrong thing' - they just won't hire me.

That’s an important “or”. It’s not always scarcity, it’s often the perceived value. CEOs are just one of many examples where the pay is not at all because of scarcity.

I meant to add 'perceived' on value, and the 'scarcity' aspect can play in to the perception of value too.

Re: Is software development really a dead-end job after age 35-40?

#367

Post by joshvm »

jordanb wrote: post #98
tptacek wrote: post #71

I was going to add this as a reply to a comment downthread but I think it's too important to bury. The fundamental rule of career progression in the technology industry is to position yourself as a domain expert in something more specific than "programming" . It's very difficult to "own" "programming" in a way where you can use scarcity to drive integer multiple increases of the median salary. It is not as difficult…

The big danger is "owning" some domain that falls out of fashion. You might "own" distributed systems and do great for a time, but then companies start transitioning from that architecture and nobody returns your calls anymore. Also I've noticed a lot of sub-fields like computer vision or self driving cars where there's a great deal of nerd interest but very little actual employment. In fact, I have a feeling that co…

As a computer vision person - the jobs are there. The reason it doesn't look like much employment is that there aren't that many of us relative to the hoardes of web developers. Part of the problem is that the bar is high. Most jobs require a few years of practical experience, a research degree, or both.

It's the classic example of complaining that there are no jobs, while the industry complains that there aren't enough talented people. I get a few recruiters pinging me weekly and I'm not looking to move jobs - their story is always that there is a huge demand for good people.

I think the CV job market is unlikely to get much better, at least in terms of numbers of positions available. On the other hand, it's a stable job market that isn't going anywhere. The pay is already above average and it's not likely to go down because of the experience required. There's no shortage of applications and it's not dependent on a particular language, toolset or hardware. Virtually every big factory in the world employs some kind of machine vision system, for instance. And pretty much every computer vision deployment has to be modified for the application.

There are much easier ways to make money though. If you want to be a wealthy programmer, get on the web/app development train and accept that you might need to pivot every couple of years.

Re: Is software development really a dead-end job after age 35-40?

#368

Post by caseysoftware »

tmat wrote: post #361
auxym wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>In fact, I have a feeling that computer programming is the stick that's holding the entire STEM tent up---if not for programming as a consolation prize you'd have a whole lot of physics and chemical engineers making lattes at starbucks---and further that web development is the stick that's holding the programming tent up. I swear, I repeat this comment in almost every news article posted about how "We need more STEM…

There is a difference in engineering and programming. An engineer uses programming to solve an engineering problem. If all you can do is program, you're just not as valuable. Programming is one of many tools I use in my every day job as an engineer. I think this goes back to being an expert in a "domain". Being able to apply programming to that domain is far more valuable.

Quite possible but since everyone uses the term "engineer" without any context or specific qualifications, we should expect any distinctions to dissolve as people realize total morons are using it too.

* I have a bachelors in electrical engineering from a top ranked school.

Re: Is software development really a dead-end job after age 35-40?

#369

Post by jalfresi »

vvanders wrote: post #243
jsolson wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I cannot agree with this enough. I'm a pretty capable "generalist software engineer", but what keeps me employed is expertise in virtualization and high-performance virtual networking. Prior to that, it was expertise in distributed systems and a knack for debugging distributed failures. The history here is relevant: later in the thread Thomas points out that you can switch domains. My time spent in distributed system…

Yup, totally. There's a pretty common trend in GameDev -> Embedded Systems | High-Speed Trading. The skillsets are very similar while the domains are quite different.

It would be interesting to see some kind map (like the civ tech tree) of which domains share skills

Re: Is software development really a dead-end job after age 35-40?

#370

Post by auxym »

tmat wrote: post #361
auxym wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>In fact, I have a feeling that computer programming is the stick that's holding the entire STEM tent up---if not for programming as a consolation prize you'd have a whole lot of physics and chemical engineers making lattes at starbucks---and further that web development is the stick that's holding the programming tent up. I swear, I repeat this comment in almost every news article posted about how "We need more STEM…

There is a difference in engineering and programming. An engineer uses programming to solve an engineering problem. If all you can do is program, you're just not as valuable. Programming is one of many tools I use in my every day job as an engineer. I think this goes back to being an expert in a "domain". Being able to apply programming to that domain is far more valuable.

My point wasn't really the distinction between engineering and programming, but between everything IT-related (red-hot job market) and all-other-STEM related (not so hot job market): sciences (chem, bio, physics, math) and traditional engineering (civil, mechanical, chemical, electrical)
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