Is software development really a dead-end job after age 35-40? • Hacker News Board

Re: Is software development really a dead-end job after age 35-40?

#311

Post by rplst8 » Sat, Nov 18, 2017, 5:19 AM UTC

kelnos wrote: post #260

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By sinking your precious time invests sure. But you won’t be able to claim you have 20 years of experience in X anymore, you will be a newbie for awhile. That, and your PhD is already in something else...your papers are already published in other conferences....it can be a problem trying to move from say PL to ML.

Sure, but those are the trade-offs. You don't get the reward without taking on a bit of risk. It's a little ironic to hear talk like this, since around here I hear a lot of "sorry your coal mining job is going away, but you need to get with the times and train for something relevant". Same thing applies here. If you pick a programming specialization that eventually falls out of favor, buck up and learn a new one. May…

I don't think it's unreasonable for people to expect that they should be able to work in a field for the majority of their careers. Retraining is not an efficient use of ones productive years.

Re: Is software development really a dead-end job after age 35-40?

#312

Post by dkarl » Sat, Nov 18, 2017, 5:30 AM UTC

Fishkins wrote: post #225

tptacek wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can switch domains.

Is this easier for someone who was a "domain expert" in an obsolete domain than for a programming generalist? i.e. could a programming generalist also "own" a domain in a couple years?

I was surprised several times, and have since stopped being surprised, that someone who was immersed in a technology for years, loved it intimately, and knew every wart on its asshole, so to speak, and loved it anyway, the person you know as the guy who's really into PHP or the guy who's really into Oracle or the guy who's really into jQuery will not flail when the company abandons that technology. I would always worry, and think to myself, "Man, using PHP at least we have Tom. I'm not sure upgrading to a better technology is worth losing that kind of expertise. And what will poor Tom do now? PHP is his whole life." And of course six months later Tom knows every wart on the asshole of Node and React/Redux. Tom was an expert because he had an ability to take an obsessive interest in something and create his own expertise. Non-technology domains are similar, with one caveat. Somebody who is a master of a customer domain got that way by being able to take an interest and being able to empathize with customers, get them talking, and keep them talking. They can apply that to a new domain and get up to speed with terrifying speed. The caveat is that some people have domain knowledge from working in a field for years before getting into software development, and they can't replicate that experience in a new domain.

Re: Is software development really a dead-end job after age 35-40?

#313

Post by rplst8 » Sat, Nov 18, 2017, 5:32 AM UTC

maxwin wrote: post #296

jordanb wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The big danger is "owning" some domain that falls out of fashion. You might "own" distributed systems and do great for a time, but then companies start transitioning from that architecture and nobody returns your calls anymore. Also I've noticed a lot of sub-fields like computer vision or self driving cars where there's a great deal of nerd interest but very little actual employment. In fact, I have a feeling that co…

Agree. I think it is financially irresponsible for yourself and your family if you don't have a plan to transition yourself out of programmer job. It is okay if you are financially secure or independent, you can do whatever you want. But seriously, have a plan.

I'm not against having plans, but to have no other option than to transition yourself out of programming? That's an absurd way to look at aging in a technology field.

Re: Is software development really a dead-end job after age 35-40?

#314

Post by barrkel » Sat, Nov 18, 2017, 5:51 AM UTC

Silhouette wrote: post #288

agumonkey wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In theory. I'm sure everybody knows, but at times you might 1) lose willpower 2) find yourself in an unknown climate all of a sudden (say going from old codebase to nodejs..) that makes the learning curve very steep

This is why you market yourself/your business as specialising in a particular domain, but you study good fundamentals and general principles, which you then apply to your current domain(s) of interest using whatever development tools are of use in that domain.

Straight up coding is such a pop culture that some subset of good principles are unknown or misunderstood by each successive hip new movement, every one flawed in a different way to their predecessors, but doomed to make similar mistakes by lack of experience. The flaws easily extend into "best practices" around any given tool; and then you stick out like a sore thumb for recognising what should be done, but everybody else cargo cults the orthodoxy.

Re: Is software development really a dead-end job after age 35-40?

#315

Post by graycat » Sat, Nov 18, 2017, 5:57 AM UTC

To get paid well, in simple terms, need (1) luck, (2) a bubble of some kind, (3) someone with more money than brains, or, (4) finally, (A) to deliver some economic value that (B) can be seen by someone with money.

Taking (4), a bottleneck here is part (B). So, there is something better -- (5) with (A) deliver some economic value that (B) a lot of people with time and/or money can see. That is, with (5) do a startup and own and run the business that delivers your (A) economic value. Then to heck with finding (A) just some one person to give you a job with good financial security and, instead, (B) find a lot of people, say, on the Internet each of whom give you a little time and/or money.

From one person, it' a lot easier to get a little time and money than a lot. And it's a lot more stable to be getting the time and/or money from many people instead of just one.

If you have some good economic value, then hopefully you can cut out the middle man of your boss, his boss, his CEO, his BOD, their HR department, sales department, marketing department, legal department, etc. and deliver the value fairly directly yourself.

Re: Is software development really a dead-end job after age 35-40?

#316

Post by sn9 » Sat, Nov 18, 2017, 6:02 AM UTC

brooklyn_ashey wrote: post #291

amyjess wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One other thing: by "BigCorps", I'm referring to things like banks, Wal-Mart and so forth, not technology companies like eg Google. Yeah, I'd much rather work at a traditional conservative BigCorp than a Silicon Valley company that never grew up from startup mentality. If you do want to stay I tech, I'd recommend looking at the B2B telecom sector. It's far, far more conservative then any other part of the tech indu…

I'd say this is a great tip for a candidate who isn't underrepresented in tech. I just came from an interview at a conservative midwest company that isn't technically a "tech" company but has a huge tech dept. Got to the end of 5 interviews at breakneck speed and with lots of acclaim from the team about my speed and competence...that is until they saw me. Everyone, and I mean everyone in the engineering dept., save o…

I was under the impression that these sorts of BigCorps were actually a better place for the underrepresented and frequently have more diverse technical workforces (along race/age/gender lines).

I just got hired by one in Texas that reflects that impression, which I had before I ever interviewed there.

Re: Is software development really a dead-end job after age 35-40?

#317

Post by barrkel » Sat, Nov 18, 2017, 6:02 AM UTC

nihils wrote: post #230

edanm wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is incredibly good and valuable advice. I hope everyone heeds it (if what they want is to increase earning potential, of course). I'm not sure every programmer should start with trying to specialize in a domain. But definitely, at some point, you're reaching diminishing returns for getting better at programming. Put another way: Getting better at the craft of programming allows you to write programs faster and b…

I don't think there is significant overlap between Python's ideal use cases and Haskells. For one, Haskell's advanced static type system lends itself nicely to formal verification and the handling of domain specific languages. Both domains are important in safety-critical software. It also has much better ways of dealing with concurrency (STM and linear types). On the other hand, Python's ecosystem seems to be centre…

Most programming problems have multiple viable implementation approaches, and implementation language is not usually the gating factor on success.

It takes some esoteric innovative features to make a difference, but that will also cut both ways; it'll make it harder to hire for and scale, too.

Re: Is software development really a dead-end job after age 35-40?

#318

Post by Silhouette » Sat, Nov 18, 2017, 6:02 AM UTC

agumonkey wrote: post #297

Silhouette wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why you market yourself/your business as specialising in a particular domain, but you study good fundamentals and general principles, which you then apply to your current domain(s) of interest using whatever development tools are of use in that domain.

It's a bit more involved than this. Current market doesn't really follows fundamentals. I dug into advanced theory quite a bit and that won't help me peanuts when trying to unfold what people mean with their patterns and ways. Quite the opposite some times, angular 1 for instance, it was a bit insane what they assembled.. unlike anything fundamental if you ask me.

I suppose I would argue that developers with a lot of experience and good knowledge of fundamentals might well steer clear of a great deal of the unnecessary complexity and short-lived tooling in today's web development world.

Re: Is software development really a dead-end job after age 35-40?

#319

Post by topmonk » Sat, Nov 18, 2017, 6:02 AM UTC

everyone wrote: post #43

I'm frankly flabbergasted why silicon valley (apparently, from reading articles here) has this youth fixation. In my software dev experience the least useful people on the team have invariably been the youngest. My pet theory answer for my own question goes thusly: Young people are more easily indoctrinated / brainwashed and dominated and thats what Google and whoever really want in their employees.

As a manager, having a bunch of naive hardworking employees under you is a lot better than having skilled but knowledgeable workers. The problem with the latter is they can seem to know more than you do at meetings, lead teams themselves, and become your competition for managerial roles after they've been around for awhile.

Better to hire the social inept, easily manipulatable young guy, than your future competitor for your very own job.

Re: Is software development really a dead-end job after age 35-40?

#320

Post by akie » Sat, Nov 18, 2017, 6:06 AM UTC

rplst8 wrote: post #311

kelnos wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but those are the trade-offs. You don't get the reward without taking on a bit of risk. It's a little ironic to hear talk like this, since around here I hear a lot of "sorry your coal mining job is going away, but you need to get with the times and train for something relevant". Same thing applies here. If you pick a programming specialization that eventually falls out of favor, buck up and learn a new one. May…

I don't think it's unreasonable for people to expect that they should be able to work in a field for the majority of their careers. Retraining is not an efficient use of ones productive years.

Maybe it’s not unreasonable, but unrealistic?