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Is software development really a dead-end job after age 35-40?

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Re: Is software development really a dead-end job after age 35-40?

#251

Post by JimboOmega »

ChicagoDave wrote: post #135

There a couple of aspects to this issue. I'm 53. Management: I would argue that it's critical to garner management skills well before you turn 40. If you wait until 50, you're going to find it very difficult to move from talent-oriented jobs to management ones. Coding: I hate to generalize, but it's very likely you'll learn so much over your career that you will become an ineffective developer. You will know how to d…

I agree with your points, and also suffer from that syndrome.

So I have to ask - how do you do the management portion of that? Getting into it, I mean, more than just developing the skills or interest.

I've been trying to get into the management side of things but get stymied over and over, and typically people who express disinterest (and no particular aptitude) keep getting chosen to do it. This has had a tendency to wind up with most of the people involved (except the person who gave the promotion) quitting, and it's really frustrating to watch it play out again and again.

I suppose in one case I did get promoted to lead, but I was lead of nothing, because literally everyone else had quit.

The point is I want to move - badly - in that direction, and see lots of opportunity to do lots of things there, but keep getting stymied. How can I get past that?

Re: Is software development really a dead-end job after age 35-40?

#253

Post by [deleted] »

tptacek wrote: post #71

I was going to add this as a reply to a comment downthread but I think it's too important to bury. The fundamental rule of career progression in the technology industry is to position yourself as a domain expert in something more specific than "programming" . It's very difficult to "own" "programming" in a way where you can use scarcity to drive integer multiple increases of the median salary. It is not as difficult…

[deleted]

Re: Is software development really a dead-end job after age 35-40?

#254

Post by JimboOmega »

LargeWu wrote: post #141
pmoriarty wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"If you are not self motivated to constantly evolve you have a problem. Moreso than in a lot of other professions." I was self-motivated to constantly learn, and had no trouble doing it... when I was young. It was the right profession for me then, when I had the interest and passion. After a while, though, much of it starts to seem the same. The towering vistas that were once full of mystery, adventure, and discovery…

That describes me exactly. Coincidentally, I turned 40 a few months ago. I took my current job with the goal of transitioning into a leadership role, either product or management. I was walking into a situation where I knew people already here and was hoping to leverage that. Those people left a few months after I started, and now I'm kind of stuck on an island. I've approached my current boss but he's completely uni…

I know that feeling.

A lot of times I feel like there is not career track after you hit "Senior Software Engineer", especially outside of super specialty tech. It feels like the only real track is management, and most places don't want to promote or change the management structure at all.

It's honestly very hard to get excited about going from Senior Engineer to Staff or Principal or whatever the text title is. Nothing will change in terms of the job. Pay is pretty well pegged to what you started at with single-digit percentage increases every year or so.

Skill wise? Learning new frameworks is just not as exciting as it used to be. Even then - the reality is that whether you're the most skilled dev in the world or a mediocre dev with only a 9 week bootcamp of experience, you're going to not understand the new environment you're dropped into when you start. It's full of weird quirks and historical oddities. It'll take time to understand those and get productive in whatever the particular stack is.

All of which feels like... every time you start a new job, you're starting over. With a little more insight and vision, but fundamentally, doing the same thing over and over.

Re: Is software development really a dead-end job after age 35-40?

#255

Post by HN15718653 »

danjoc wrote: post #245
HN15718653 wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That answer is quite bullshitty. I was there for many years and a few teams, and 8pm was NOT the norm. In fact, it's ludicrous to even imagine a busy Google office at 8pm. 6pm it starts to slow down, by 6:30 half the office is heading out. Some people would get there super early and leave early-ish. Look, at the end of the day it's about getting shit done and COMMITTING CODE. That latter part is something a lot of pe…

>That answer is quite bullshitty. You're so focused on the time people leave the office, I can't tell if you're arguing that 50 hour weeks at Google is abnormal. That answer was upvoted by multiple Google employees/former employees. >Look, at the end of the day it's about getting shit done and COMMITTING CODE. Are you suggesting that working long hours equals more and better results? There's a stack of research to co…

I'm calling BS on the Quora guy's statement that Google offices typically run to 8pm. They do not, by a longshot. The typical schedule was 9-6.

Now, # hours a week is a different question. Just because people leave a 6 or whatever, they often come back online at night, or work some more on weekends. That was very common.

And your last point, I honestly can't put together how you think my statement about committing code had anything to do with # of hours.

Re: Is software development really a dead-end job after age 35-40?

#256

Post by sjg007 »

tptacek wrote: post #247
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By sinking your precious time invests sure. But you won’t be able to claim you have 20 years of experience in X anymore, you will be a newbie for awhile. That, and your PhD is already in something else...your papers are already published in other conferences....it can be a problem trying to move from say PL to ML.

I don't think getting a PhD is an especially good maximize-earnings plan.

I think wall street is still the best option to make a lot of money.

Re: Is software development really a dead-end job after age 35-40?

#257

Post by baddox »

jordanb wrote: post #98
tptacek wrote: post #71

I was going to add this as a reply to a comment downthread but I think it's too important to bury. The fundamental rule of career progression in the technology industry is to position yourself as a domain expert in something more specific than "programming" . It's very difficult to "own" "programming" in a way where you can use scarcity to drive integer multiple increases of the median salary. It is not as difficult…

The big danger is "owning" some domain that falls out of fashion. You might "own" distributed systems and do great for a time, but then companies start transitioning from that architecture and nobody returns your calls anymore. Also I've noticed a lot of sub-fields like computer vision or self driving cars where there's a great deal of nerd interest but very little actual employment. In fact, I have a feeling that co…

I was thinking that the domains would be broader things that are not likely to fall out of fashion or change faster than an individual can keep up. Things like “security” or “networking.”

Re: Is software development really a dead-end job after age 35-40?

#258

Post by JamesBarney »

jordanb wrote: post #165
tptacek wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want to convince me that computer vision is a bad domain to specialize in for journeyman programmers because it takes post-grad education to get a job, that'll be a quick and easy argument. As a counterexample, though, most serious work in cryptography (for instance) is done by grad students, but the best jobs in crypto are not automatically going to grad students. Either way: if your goal is to maximize lifet…

I'll have to defer to your knowledge of the market for self-taught cryptologists. My understanding is that most journeyman programmers working in security are in Burb Suite Operator positions. My point isn't that becoming a subject matter expert isn't a good way to supercharge your earnings for a few years. I agree with you there. Clearly, a guy with lots of experience with and deep knowledge of the Oracle database c…

One of the reasons people are switching from Oracle is that the DBA's are so damn expensive.

Re: Is software development really a dead-end job after age 35-40?

#259

Post by tptacek »

baddox wrote: post #257
jordanb wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The big danger is "owning" some domain that falls out of fashion. You might "own" distributed systems and do great for a time, but then companies start transitioning from that architecture and nobody returns your calls anymore. Also I've noticed a lot of sub-fields like computer vision or self driving cars where there's a great deal of nerd interest but very little actual employment. In fact, I have a feeling that co…

I was thinking that the domains would be broader things that are not likely to fall out of fashion or change faster than an individual can keep up. Things like “security” or “networking.”

Yes. More generally, it should be "the sort of thing you can imagine investing a career in". Does anyone really plan to invest a career in building expertise in Golang (for instance), outside of the small group of people who actually work on the language itself?

(Being a PL design & implementation expert --- not "having very good taste in PLs"! --- seems like a defensible position in the market, except perhaps that there are a lot of people who want to work on compilers and you're competing with a healthy pipeline of them.)

Re: Is software development really a dead-end job after age 35-40?

#260

Post by kelnos »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #244
tptacek wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can switch domains.

By sinking your precious time invests sure. But you won’t be able to claim you have 20 years of experience in X anymore, you will be a newbie for awhile. That, and your PhD is already in something else...your papers are already published in other conferences....it can be a problem trying to move from say PL to ML.

Sure, but those are the trade-offs. You don't get the reward without taking on a bit of risk.

It's a little ironic to hear talk like this, since around here I hear a lot of "sorry your coal mining job is going away, but you need to get with the times and train for something relevant". Same thing applies here. If you pick a programming specialization that eventually falls out of favor, buck up and learn a new one. Maybe that'll mean a pay cut for a bit as you ramp up, but that's just how it works.

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