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DHH: Appstore is a warehouse of shit

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Re: DHH: Appstore is a warehouse of shit

#41

Post by toddheasley »

chwahoo wrote: post #38
[deleted] wrote: post #28

[deleted]

I think DHH shares your understanding of Apple's motives (although he stated it less precisely), but argues that -- if there is a big benefit to using Apple's tools -- someone will do that and create the better app. Why stop folks from creating a mediocre app that happens to be written in a cross-platform way? There are lots of apps that are mediocre and/or slow to incorporate new features anyway. Are you suggesting…

"Are you suggesting that Firefox and Eclipse are lacking in some way because they are built for multiple platforms and would be much better if they were written for a single platform..."

Firefox and Eclipse would be worlds better if they were written for a single platform. I'd go so far as to suggest that the only gain in writing cross-platform software is that it runs on more than one platform. Everything else suffers -- or at least is limited to a common denominator. "Common" being the operative word.

Re: DHH: Appstore is a warehouse of shit

#42

Post by theBobMcCormick »

dieterrams wrote: post #18

I broadly agree with DHH, but the "warehouse of shit" argument is a bad one, and has been whenever anyone has tried to make it. The argument basically goes like this: - Apple restricts what languages can be used to increase the quality of apps in the App Store. - But the App Store is full of crap. - Therefore, the restriction does no good, and should be abandoned. The problem is that the conclusion doesn't follow fro…

Why would you say "The restriction is undoubtedly effective at preventing even more crap from entering the App Store". Is there any evidence that Apple's restriction on languages is preventing more crap apps?

Keep in mind this isn't about Flash (or at least, not just about Flash). It means iPhone developers can't use any other languages (Lua, JavaScript, Python, etc), interpreted or compiled.

You've got to have your head shoved pretty far up Steve Job's reality distortion field to claim that this restriction anything other than an anticompetitive move to "lock" developers into the platform.

Re: DHH: Appstore is a warehouse of shit

#43

Post by borism »

silvestrov wrote: post #25
dieterrams wrote: post #18

I broadly agree with DHH, but the "warehouse of shit" argument is a bad one, and has been whenever anyone has tried to make it. The argument basically goes like this: - Apple restricts what languages can be used to increase the quality of apps in the App Store. - But the App Store is full of crap. - Therefore, the restriction does no good, and should be abandoned. The problem is that the conclusion doesn't follow fro…

That was a 'religious' statement from DHH, not a rational argument. Wonder why he wanted to bash it like that. To misuse DHH's statement: to use the word "fascist" when describing an app store is sign of being backed into a corner. Otherwise, you'd be more elaborate. I've heard the Android store has even more crap and way less restrictions. If that is true, it certainly doesn't help DHH's argument that abandoning the…

he just reflects on two separate facts: 1. app store is full of crap 2. apple being fascist to developers (and recently iPhone 4 users)

Re: DHH: Appstore is a warehouse of shit

#44

Post by jerf »

skymt wrote: post #27
dieterrams wrote: post #18

I broadly agree with DHH, but the "warehouse of shit" argument is a bad one, and has been whenever anyone has tried to make it. The argument basically goes like this: - Apple restricts what languages can be used to increase the quality of apps in the App Store. - But the App Store is full of crap. - Therefore, the restriction does no good, and should be abandoned. The problem is that the conclusion doesn't follow fro…

I don't think your portrayal of the argument is entirely correct. Here's the one I've usually seen: - Apple claims that the language restriction is intended to increase the quality of apps in the App Store. - But the App Store is full of crap. - Apple knows this but still repeats their quality defense. - Therefore, Apple is being disingenuous and in fact has another motive for their restrictions on developers. I've y…

You don't need to hypothesize an ulterior motive, they told you what it was straight out during the "It Must Be Objective-C" kurfuffle. It is to maintain control over the platform and ensure that as they update the platform the apps can easily track it because they are all on the same basic framework. That they later loosened this restriction doesn't really change the point.

I hate to call that "ulterior" though, because while I disagree with it, I can not say it is evil or invalid. It's their strategy.

Re: DHH: Appstore is a warehouse of shit

#45

Post by patrickaljord »

WiseWeasel wrote: post #37
patrickaljord wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> sorely lacking I think you forgot about android.

Nope, handset vendors are screwing that platform up, with junkware you can't delete, customized interfaces (often for the worse), locked down firmware, reluctance to support Android OS updates, etc.

Android is not doing that bad really:

http://www.zdnet.com/blog/burnette/android-sales-surge-surpa...

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2367313,00.asp

Re: DHH: Appstore is a warehouse of shit

#46

Post by credo »

gte910h wrote: post #10

The Appstore is full of crap because apple won't pre-approve things, so no one will risk doing "big" things as they're afraid of rejection. If you spend 200k of your company's money then Apple rejects you and refuses to publish your app, then you lose your job in most companies. I have this conversation with large large companies over and over.

You're making three assumptions

1. no one will risk doing "big" things as they're afraid of rejection.

2. If an app store has 3. If Apple pre-approved apps and more >200K-budget-apps were in the app-store, the app-store would not be full of low-quality apps.

The first assertion is a bit extreme. I understand that some big companies may hesitate to create apps that aren't pre-approved, but many other big companies (ranging from Volkswagen to Pizza Hut to New York Times to Microsoft) haven't suffered from any inhibitions when it comes to creating iPhone apps.

The second and third assumptions seem flat-out wrong. On (2) you can create high-quality apps on a small budget and on (3) the presence of high-quality apps (whether low-budget or >200K-budget) isn't going to dissuade junkware publishers.

Re: DHH: Appstore is a warehouse of shit

#47

Post by tjogin »

dieterrams wrote: post #18

I broadly agree with DHH, but the "warehouse of shit" argument is a bad one, and has been whenever anyone has tried to make it. The argument basically goes like this: - Apple restricts what languages can be used to increase the quality of apps in the App Store. - But the App Store is full of crap. - Therefore, the restriction does no good, and should be abandoned. The problem is that the conclusion doesn't follow fro…

Right. Compare to the Android marketplace. If the AppStore is shit, what the hell is that?

Re: DHH: Appstore is a warehouse of shit

#48

Post by inerte »

jerf wrote: post #44
skymt wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think your portrayal of the argument is entirely correct. Here's the one I've usually seen: - Apple claims that the language restriction is intended to increase the quality of apps in the App Store. - But the App Store is full of crap. - Apple knows this but still repeats their quality defense. - Therefore, Apple is being disingenuous and in fact has another motive for their restrictions on developers. I've y…

You don't need to hypothesize an ulterior motive, they told you what it was straight out during the "It Must Be Objective-C" kurfuffle. It is to maintain control over the platform and ensure that as they update the platform the apps can easily track it because they are all on the same basic framework. That they later loosened this restriction doesn't really change the point. I hate to call that "ulterior" though, bec…

Also, cross compiled/deployed apps means:

- Apps won't use iPhone features not present on other phones

- Apps will be available on other phones, thus making iPhones less attractives (that card can only be played while iPhones have this incredible momentum)

- They might be ugly, targetting the lowest denominator

In the long run it's stupid idea (IMHO), but it let's them milk the iPhone current gigantic success.

It's not evil, I mean it's not actively causing harm in the ultimate scale, but it does suck.

Re: DHH: Appstore is a warehouse of shit

#49

Post by astrange »

theBobMcCormick wrote: post #42
dieterrams wrote: post #18

I broadly agree with DHH, but the "warehouse of shit" argument is a bad one, and has been whenever anyone has tried to make it. The argument basically goes like this: - Apple restricts what languages can be used to increase the quality of apps in the App Store. - But the App Store is full of crap. - Therefore, the restriction does no good, and should be abandoned. The problem is that the conclusion doesn't follow fro…

Why would you say "The restriction is undoubtedly effective at preventing even more crap from entering the App Store". Is there any evidence that Apple's restriction on languages is preventing more crap apps? Keep in mind this isn't about Flash (or at least, not just about Flash). It means iPhone developers can't use any other languages (Lua, JavaScript, Python, etc), interpreted or compiled. You've got to have your…

> Lua, JavaScript

I'm told several of the top 10 games on the store use Lua (with permission, presumably). And you're specifically allowed to use JavaScript since it comes with the system.

Re: DHH: Appstore is a warehouse of shit

#50

Post by technomancy »

ra88it wrote: post #34

Who cares about the percentage of shit in the app store? It's not like you have to sift through all the apps manually. Think about all the web pages on the internet. Does the web have a better batting average than the app store? Does it matter? The only pragmatic argument against Apple's app store policies (IMO), is that companies cannot be confident enough to invest heavily in an application that has yet to be appro…

> Think about all the web pages on the internet. Does the web have a better batting average than the app store? Does it matter?

This. The fact that Android allows you to install over HTTP is a huge win as it lets you leverage this great distributed fault-tolerant network of computors that is commonly called the Web. Pagerank is a way, way better way to determine app quality than App Store or Market reviews.

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