Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Is software development really a dead-end job after age 35-40?

quora.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

161–170 of 411 posts

Re: Is software development really a dead-end job after age 35-40?

#161

Post by FLUX-YOU »

maxxxxx wrote: post #7

I am 50 and I do OK. I also see people around my age and older who do well too. It seems to me that a lot of people who get filtered out in their 30s should never have been in the profession either for lack of motivation, interest or talent. If you are not self motivated to constantly evolve you have a problem. Moreso than in a lot of other professions.

>If you are not self motivated to constantly evolve you have a problem.

Programmers to programmers: You must be a super agile ninja capable of teaching yourself everything at a moment's notice.

Businesses to programmers: Yeah, we still need people doing Java 6 and VB6. We're also going to disregard all of your security and technical debt concerns. We're also going to hire managers who suddenly change a bunch of tech, causing the rest of the team to re-train themselves, harming their career.

I still don't get where this need comes from. The world still needs LOB developers. The uber-ninjas haven't solved that problem yet. It isn't going to maximize your lifetime earnings, but you're not likely to retire under $100k either.

Programmers are extra-ordinarily hard on themselves and other programmers in industries where businesses still just don't give a fuck because they are making so much.

I really wish I knew why you guys did this to us.

Re: Is software development really a dead-end job after age 35-40?

#162

Post by neves »

lliamander wrote: post #40
Gargoyle wrote: post #22

In the general sense, this is the wrong place to ask. It's a self-selecting group in that most people over 40 here will be among the group that lasted in the career. It won't give a sense of how large that group is in the wider world, nor how many didn't stick with it. On the other hand, if you want to hear how to make it past 40 in software, this is probably an excellent place to ask!

Then let me ask: how do you make it past 40 in software? Specifically, how do you position yourself so that you are actively sought after (rather than merely employable)?

Apply to a government job. There is less ageism in the Gov than in the private sector. At least in my country were you must do pass a very difficult and competitive contest.

Re: Is software development really a dead-end job after age 35-40?

#163

Post by iamcasen »

pmoriarty wrote: post #83
maxxxxx wrote: post #7

I am 50 and I do OK. I also see people around my age and older who do well too. It seems to me that a lot of people who get filtered out in their 30s should never have been in the profession either for lack of motivation, interest or talent. If you are not self motivated to constantly evolve you have a problem. Moreso than in a lot of other professions.

"If you are not self motivated to constantly evolve you have a problem. Moreso than in a lot of other professions." I was self-motivated to constantly learn, and had no trouble doing it... when I was young. It was the right profession for me then, when I had the interest and passion. After a while, though, much of it starts to seem the same. The towering vistas that were once full of mystery, adventure, and discovery…

I have already felt the way you do and I'm only 31. I think 90% of that feeling comes from the type of problems your job is asking you to solve. It's definitely tough to keep the interesting work flowing in, and avoid the tedious "hey build yet another crud app!"

My strategy for my career is to try and position myself into a position of enough authority to decide priorities around software engineering, and what my team is working on. Then I can delegate all of the boilerplate to the younger engineers, and spend more time collaborating on much more interesting and difficult problems.

Re: Is software development really a dead-end job after age 35-40?

#164

Post by daSn0wie »

lliamander wrote: post #40
Gargoyle wrote: post #22

In the general sense, this is the wrong place to ask. It's a self-selecting group in that most people over 40 here will be among the group that lasted in the career. It won't give a sense of how large that group is in the wider world, nor how many didn't stick with it. On the other hand, if you want to hear how to make it past 40 in software, this is probably an excellent place to ask!

Then let me ask: how do you make it past 40 in software? Specifically, how do you position yourself so that you are actively sought after (rather than merely employable)?

Learn soft skills along with staying up to date on technical skills.

Work on understanding the business needs and not just business requirements for your feature.

Learn how to foster team growth, not just your own personal growth.

Figure out processes to help the team and not just building your feature.

Don't be intimidated by younger engineers who are trying to climb the ladder. Help them succeed.

Re: Is software development really a dead-end job after age 35-40?

#165

Post by jordanb »

tptacek wrote: post #123
jordanb wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An LOB programmer could work on computer vision side projects for a couple years and probably put together a neat portfolio of work. But the few people who are really hiring people who "own" CV want PHDs with a relevant thesis and you're not going to get one of those working weeknights after the kids go to bed. Meanwhile people pursuing PHDs have no idea if their area of research is going to be hot in industry when t…

If you want to convince me that computer vision is a bad domain to specialize in for journeyman programmers because it takes post-grad education to get a job, that'll be a quick and easy argument. As a counterexample, though, most serious work in cryptography (for instance) is done by grad students, but the best jobs in crypto are not automatically going to grad students. Either way: if your goal is to maximize lifet…

I'll have to defer to your knowledge of the market for self-taught cryptologists. My understanding is that most journeyman programmers working in security are in Burb Suite Operator positions.

My point isn't that becoming a subject matter expert isn't a good way to supercharge your earnings for a few years. I agree with you there.

Clearly, a guy with lots of experience with and deep knowledge of the Oracle database could do pretty well for himself 10 years ago. A person with lots of experience with and deep knowledge of OpenStack could do the same five years ago.

My point is that it's not a good, safe or stable way to ride out the last half of a 30+ year long career.

My further point is that demand for lots of these specialists doesn't appear to be particularly elastic, and therefore "become a subject matter expert" is not a universally applicable bit of career advice for every LOB engineer worried about ageism: if everyone successfully took your advice there would be a whole bunch of unemployed crypto experts.

Re: Is software development really a dead-end job after age 35-40?

#166

Post by sumeno »

bostik wrote: post #151
sumeno wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

10-8 on weekdays with no weekends is only 50 hours a week assuming you are working the entire time. Not ideal but it isn't an absurd amount of time either. Sure 8pm is late but they are also getting to work at 10am. People wouldn't be nearly as upset by someone saying they are at work from 8-6 I think it varies greatly depending on what team you're on but I work ~40 hours a week most weeks

I can guarantee that it's far too much when you have a family. You want to be able to spend at least some time with your kid(s) and see them in a state other than overly tired and/or hyper before going to bed. If tech companies want to encourage women to join by paying them to freeze their eggs, I don't see why they wouldn't pay men to have a vasectomy too. What better way to ensure that family won't get in the way?

What is an acceptable amount to work then?

Re: Is software development really a dead-end job after age 35-40?

#167

Post by rpeden »

jordanb wrote: post #121
tptacek wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If by "not easy" you mean "a couple of years", sure. Don't mistake what I'm saying. I'm using the word "own" rhetorically. Obviously there will be no point in your career where you are likely to be the world's leading expert on computer vision. What you're aiming for is to be the leading expert that is available to employers within a reasonable amount of time at the level of compensation you're hoping for . It's a sp…

An LOB programmer could work on computer vision side projects for a couple years and probably put together a neat portfolio of work. But the few people who are really hiring people who "own" CV want PHDs with a relevant thesis and you're not going to get one of those working weeknights after the kids go to bed. Meanwhile people pursuing PHDs have no idea if their area of research is going to be hot in industry when t…

In the specific case of CV, a programmer looking to move into that area is probably doing themselves a disservice if they just apply for jobs that are actually looking to hire computer vision specialists.

There are so, so many businesses out there that could benefit from CV, but they don't realize it. Maybe they're spending a ton of money on off the shelf OCR software that isn't great for their needs. Maybe they're spending a few hundred thousand dollars a year manually organizing and classifying documents when they could automate it.

These companies won't be hiring someone to own CV for them, because they don't know they need it. They might not even know what computer vision is. And they won't care about whether you have a PhD or a relevant thesis. They'll care about whether can can demonstrate that you can solve their problems and save them a pile on money.

Granted, finding companies with these types of problems is perhaps not something that a typical LOB programmer knows how to approach. And if they see themselves as just a LOB programmer, it might stay like this.

If they make an effort to get to know people and network outside of the usual tech circles, they might just find it possible to position themselves as solvers of specific types of problems - problems to which CV happens to be the best solution.

I know that's not a path that'll work for everyone. But it's one path that leads from 'LOB Programmer' to 'Someone who makes lots of money doing development with computer vision'.

Re: Is software development really a dead-end job after age 35-40?

#168

Post by iamcasen »

OhHeyItsE wrote: post #128
weeksie wrote: post #104

I'm 40. I work 6-9 months out of the year. When I'm consulting I get great contracts, just wrapping up an idyllic green field Elixir and React product development. Zero to product in six months. Happy customers, happy colleagues. Now the weather here (NYC) is getting a bit cool so last night my girlfriend and I booked tickets to Thailand for the months of January and February. Being an old software developer is prett…

A long-time dream of mine. Am envious. Wish I had the confidence to do it. Wish I knew how to get "Client #1"

Mine too. It's all about who you know I guess.

Re: Is software development really a dead-end job after age 35-40?

#169

Post by tptacek »

jordanb wrote: post #165
tptacek wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want to convince me that computer vision is a bad domain to specialize in for journeyman programmers because it takes post-grad education to get a job, that'll be a quick and easy argument. As a counterexample, though, most serious work in cryptography (for instance) is done by grad students, but the best jobs in crypto are not automatically going to grad students. Either way: if your goal is to maximize lifet…

I'll have to defer to your knowledge of the market for self-taught cryptologists. My understanding is that most journeyman programmers working in security are in Burb Suite Operator positions. My point isn't that becoming a subject matter expert isn't a good way to supercharge your earnings for a few years. I agree with you there. Clearly, a guy with lots of experience with and deep knowledge of the Oracle database c…

I see the miscommunication here.

It's not my claim that simply by moving to a specialized subfield of programming that you'll instantly quadruple your salary and future-proof your career.

Obviously, you're going to start in some domain speciality as a commoditized practitioner and, with effort, move yourself to more elite ranks of that subfield.

My point is that it is better to work on that problem --- of being an elite in a specific domain --- than it is to be an elite at the general problem of building reliable software.

(It's "Burp", by the way.)

Post reply on HN