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Apple’s diversity chief out after outcry

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Re: Apple’s diversity chief out after outcry

#51

Post by ksk »

whichdan wrote: post #23
cgore wrote: post #2

I'm a white guy. I'm a software engineer. I'm totally cool with hiring people who aren't white guys (assuming they can do the job.) It seems that Denise Young Smith understands that, but there's a weird fringe of the extreme left that only sees headcounts by color and gender, and only sees me as "a white guy", and only sees others as "an ", and it's sad that a black woman got fired for being reasonable instead of hav…

"people who aren't white guys (assuming they can do the job.)" This sort of language is problematic and harmful in that it implies that "white guys" (not even white people, just men) by default can always "do the job," and that anyone outside of that group must be judged to some sort of different standard. It makes it challenging to talk about diversity when statements start off with racist and sexist undertones.

Your statements are needlessly accusatory, and increase rather than decrease friction. You could have said something like "Hey, I know you probably didn't mean it this way, but some people might read this into your statement. Do you see that too? What do you think?"

Re: Apple’s diversity chief out after outcry

#52

Post by hashberry »

Johnny555 wrote: post #38

I thought skin color didn't matter and it's what inside that matters? So skin color is the most important factor when determining diversity?

Yes, skin color does matter, read up on Critical Race Theory. To be colorblind is to be racist because it ignores the disadvantages one can't see due to one's own privilege.

The theory states that inequality is due to racism and anyone who is part of the dominant race not only benefits from racism but unconsciously perpetuates it. This is why everyone is so sensitive, because this is what is taught in the humanities in college. "Everything is racist, everything is sexist, etc."

Re: Apple’s diversity chief out after outcry

#53

Post by jabretti »

vixen99 wrote: post #35

Apple: "We deeply believe that diversity drives innovation”. The company is certainly innovative but it's predominantly (2017) white and male but on the other hand Apple don't say what % diversity is needed to do this driving. Don't they just choose employees on merit irrespective of any other consideration? They'd be dumb if they didn't. http://www.businessinsider.com/apple-releases-2017-diversity...

Honestly, that "diversity drives innovation" is a total goddamn lie. Hiring the best people available drives innovation. Diversity itself has never been shown to be of any value.

If you look at some of the most innovative places in history, they weren't particularly diverse. It doesn't seem to have held them back. Renaissance Florence wasn't especially diverse, it was a bunch of Florentines sitting around doing Florentine things. Victorian London wasn't all that diverse, either, but they were innovating at an astounding rate.

Bell Labs in the 1960s was mostly nerdy white dudes with pocket protectors, and they were massively innovative -- because what drives innovation is thoughts like "What if we laid down amorphous silicon dioxide directly onto the wafer and annealed it to reduce electron traps?" rather than thoughts like "omg, I just saw a person with a different colour skin, my mind is totally blown".

Re: Apple’s diversity chief out after outcry

#54

Post by bertomartin »

LordKano wrote: post #48
cgore wrote: post #2

I'm a white guy. I'm a software engineer. I'm totally cool with hiring people who aren't white guys (assuming they can do the job.) It seems that Denise Young Smith understands that, but there's a weird fringe of the extreme left that only sees headcounts by color and gender, and only sees me as "a white guy", and only sees others as "an ", and it's sad that a black woman got fired for being reasonable instead of hav…

I'm a black guy in tech. I have never had a problem in the industry solely because of my race. I have had personality conflicts that may have been exacerbated because of culture differences but it was the personality conflicts that were the root. Now, even I am being painted as "Not diverse enough" for the contingent of which you speak. Recently, I read this and it sums up where it's all heading next. https://verysma…

I guess we all have different experiences

Re: Apple’s diversity chief out after outcry

#55

Post by rocmcd »

LordKano wrote: post #48
cgore wrote: post #2

I'm a white guy. I'm a software engineer. I'm totally cool with hiring people who aren't white guys (assuming they can do the job.) It seems that Denise Young Smith understands that, but there's a weird fringe of the extreme left that only sees headcounts by color and gender, and only sees me as "a white guy", and only sees others as "an ", and it's sad that a black woman got fired for being reasonable instead of hav…

I'm a black guy in tech. I have never had a problem in the industry solely because of my race. I have had personality conflicts that may have been exacerbated because of culture differences but it was the personality conflicts that were the root. Now, even I am being painted as "Not diverse enough" for the contingent of which you speak. Recently, I read this and it sums up where it's all heading next. https://verysma…

Thanks for the link. That was an eye-opening read.

Re: Apple’s diversity chief out after outcry

#56

Post by alphabettsy »

jabretti wrote: post #53
vixen99 wrote: post #35

Apple: "We deeply believe that diversity drives innovation”. The company is certainly innovative but it's predominantly (2017) white and male but on the other hand Apple don't say what % diversity is needed to do this driving. Don't they just choose employees on merit irrespective of any other consideration? They'd be dumb if they didn't. http://www.businessinsider.com/apple-releases-2017-diversity...

Honestly, that "diversity drives innovation" is a total goddamn lie. Hiring the best people available drives innovation. Diversity itself has never been shown to be of any value. If you look at some of the most innovative places in history, they weren't particularly diverse. It doesn't seem to have held them back. Renaissance Florence wasn't especially diverse, it was a bunch of Florentines sitting around doing Flore…

You threw your argument out the window with this; "omg, I just saw a person with a different colour skin, my mind is totally blown”.

People from different social and cultural backgrounds can bring different experiences and skill sets. There are many, many examples of this throughout history.

It would seem many of the diversity programs are in some ways meant to address past racism in this country. That may be a whole different topic.

Re: Apple’s diversity chief out after outcry

#57

Post by burntrelish1273 »

I don't buy "Apple is a SJW shop" hysteria automagically. If it were the case, that would be depressing because win-lose, collective-punishment identity politics is corrosive, victim-bully fascist ideology masquerading as egalitarian enlightenment. Such behaviors wouldn't add value and encourage talent to stay. Smith seemed to have the right ideas but perhaps couldn't implement them and/or had political troubles. Maybe she said other things that were inconsistent. Only Apple management and her have a better idea of what transpired.

Re: Apple’s diversity chief out after outcry

#58

Post by TYPE_FASTER »

burntrelish1273 wrote: post #57

I don't buy "Apple is a SJW shop" hysteria automagically. If it were the case, that would be depressing because win-lose, collective-punishment identity politics is corrosive, victim-bully fascist ideology masquerading as egalitarian enlightenment. Such behaviors wouldn't add value and encourage talent to stay. Smith seemed to have the right ideas but perhaps couldn't implement them and/or had political troubles. May…

It's always the vocal fringe that's covered and published by the media. When I was at college during the nineties, the college paper and the news coverage of the school was usually about some political fracas involving one to ten people.

The other 15k+ people were trying to pass their classes, partying, or both.

Re: Apple’s diversity chief out after outcry

#59

Post by dmschulman »

bertomartin wrote: post #54
LordKano wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a black guy in tech. I have never had a problem in the industry solely because of my race. I have had personality conflicts that may have been exacerbated because of culture differences but it was the personality conflicts that were the root. Now, even I am being painted as "Not diverse enough" for the contingent of which you speak. Recently, I read this and it sums up where it's all heading next. https://verysma…

I guess we all have different experiences

apt point

Re: Apple’s diversity chief out after outcry

#60

Post by Simulacra »

I am a woman, and I work for a software company. We essentially hire by resume only, and we pay a service to scrub resumes and cover letters of anything that might reveal gender, race, or ethnicity. The outside firm does all of our interviews, whiteboards, etc. and only at the very end does the hiring manager get to meet the prospective employee, and say yes or no. To my knowledge, we've rarely said no, and we let the qualifications speak for themselves. This has lead to an office of about 45% women, and 40% minority. I think this is very good diversity.
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