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On Being Midwestern: The Burden of Normality

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Re: On Being Midwestern: The Burden of Normality

#281

Post by angersock »

throwawayjava wrote: post #274
jandrewrogers wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are not comprehending the facts behind what the poster is saying. There are large parts of the midwest that were settled almost exclusively by communities of central and eastern European settlers in the late 19th century. These communities are culturally homogeneous because it was virgin agricultural country before these groups of immigrants settled there. No one else has ever tried to move into these areas, larg…

Well, I think both sides of this conversation talk past each other a bit. What you're saying is true. But it's also the case that some those homogenous, snow white communities worry about jihad, even though there aren't any Muslims within a hundred mile radius of their house. And it's especially true that when these small, homogenous communities diversify -- due to refugee placement or just economic growth and sprawl…

And the point that was originally being made was that it wasn't racism so much as just normal xenophobia, a sense of somebody from an external culture popping in. See also city-slickers, carpetbaggers, etc.

Re: On Being Midwestern: The Burden of Normality

#282

Post by mikestew »

jhpankow wrote: post #226
mikestew wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One -27F January day, I looked at my wife and said, “this is America, and we don’t have to live like this.” So we moved to North Carolina, then eventually got a gig with Microsoft. Haven’t worked at Microsoft in twelve years, but Seattle area suits us so we never left. Also I can empathize why people are against Tesla, it's just the general mindset in the midwest when it comes to new technologies. More than just the…

When it is -27F outside, what do you do? Do you go to work? Do you crank up the furnace and huddle under an electric blanket and wait for it to get above 0F again?

At the time I got on the internet and gave this new website called monster.com (stupid name for a job board, it’ll never last) a shot, narrowing my search parameters to “charlotte, nc”. True story.

But seriously, you stay inside if at all possible. Cars often don’t start, and as a consequence businesses don’t open. If you must go somewhere in the car, dress like you’ll be walking. If you don’t, and your breaks, you can die. OTOH, that’s Indiana. Whitehorse, Yukon, they probably shrug their shoulders with a “feels like it might be warming up, eh?” And sub-zero F temps didn’t stop from playing outside as kids. We just didn’t stay out long. Cover every exposed body part, layer on the insulation, won’t kill you right away. Hell, I’ve gone on a nice, brisk training run when it’s -10F. Again, don’t skimp on the clothing, file a flight plan with the spouse/SO/roommate (these days I just carry a phone), tell your friends later about your epic run this morning.

Though extreme cold can probably kill you faster than extreme heat, like anything else if you just use some sense and respect the fact that you can die in such conditions, you’ll be fine.

Re: On Being Midwestern: The Burden of Normality

#283

Post by TheAdamAndChe »

colanderman wrote: post #254
TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You did. By mentioning "stoning", "shunning", and "nudism" as "examples" of different cultures. That's absurd, as absurd as my joke combining the three. You're twisting my words in an attempt to delegitimize my statements. Those are real facets of different cultures, and acting like each doesn't happen somewhere in the world is disingenuous. > if someone walked down the street in a hijab, would you think they're "c…

Culture has always played a part in what we call "racism" and it is disingenuous to pretend otherwise. Especially it is disingenuous to claim that racism is rare, yet that it alone, and not anti-multiculturalism, was responsible for white flight.

> Culture has always played a part in what we call "racism" and it is disingenuous to pretend otherwise.

You are right. There is generally a correlation between the two, and historically the line has been blurred. They are, however, significantly different things, and I always take care to differentiate the two. The idea that genetics and skin color determine superiority is racism, and is ignorant of the facts. A culture, though, determines basic things like family structure and the definition of right and wrong. Do we really want to argue that there is no right and wrong way to live life?

> Especially it is disingenuous to claim that racism is rare, yet that it alone, and not anti-multiculturalism, was responsible for white flight.

We weren't discussing white flight. I never made that claim.

Re: On Being Midwestern: The Burden of Normality

#284

Post by dionidium »

dionidium wrote: post #277
rayiner wrote: post #7

> In a 2015 essay for Slate, “The Rust-Belt Theory of Low-Cost High Culture,” reporter Alec McGillis marveled at the cheapness—and, it seems, the mere presence—of good orchestra and museum tickets in interior cities: One fact of history that’s often overlooked is that patronage has left an incredible legacy in places like Cleveland, Detroit, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, etc. For example, one of the finest collections of…

Another thing that's often overlooked is that those cities are still quite large when defined by their MSAs. When the people "left" places like Detroit, they didn't all go to a different region; they went a few miles from "Detroit" to the Detroit suburbs, which we consider to be different cities mostly for irrelevant historical reasons. Detroit (14), St. Louis (20), Pittsburgh (26), and Cincinnati (28) are all still…

By the way, to your original point, I'm quite worried about the impacts of corporate consolidation on the legacy you describe. When Anheuser-Busch is purchased by a foreign conglomerate, it's not just the jobs of a few thousand St. Louisans that are at stake. It's the entire patronage infrastructure that such a large corporate citizen brings with it.

Anheuser-Busch did great things for St. Louis, presumably, because the executives at AB gave a shit about St. Louis. They lived there. Their kids went to school there.

That's not an assumption we can make about Belgian ownership.

Re: On Being Midwestern: The Burden of Normality

#285

Post by cgmg »

MrLeap wrote: post #180
TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This nerd doesn't know shit While you probably have a point, this isn't a very professional or productive way of expressing your opinion. edit: To those downvoting me, can you please explain why? Is "This nerd doesn't know shit" really the kind of dialog that we want to promote on this site?

I didn't downvote you, but calling him out on his language is significantly less interesting than the thing the parent said. If your quote was the only thing he said you'd be right. I think the quote added a lot of context and information his message though. > born and raised in michigan, lived all over the state. I hope i die here. That statement on its own communicates he likes Michigan, has no interest in moving.…

> born and raised in michigan, lived all over the state. I hope i die here.

You really think this adds "a lot of context and information" to his message? You must be joking. It's a knee-jerk reply consisting of two short sentences, not even properly capitalized.

> This nerd doesn't know shit

> felt like a genuine dude with genuine things to say.

I think you're pulling my leg now.

Re: On Being Midwestern: The Burden of Normality

#286

Post by ejnulls »

EADGBE wrote: post #26
throwaway15814 wrote: post #10

Just moved out of the midwest.. I was originally from the East coast and moved back. I'll just say this, being a minority, I was shocked at how much contempt people had towards middle-easterners and black people. On numerous occasions people have said they've been "dirtying up the neighborhoods which is why they moved to another burb... they need to take better care of their lawns, etc". Out of all the companies that…

> Out of all the companies that I've worked in the midwest, I've ever had a co-worker that was a black software engineer. I'm really sorry you had such a polarizing experience. But just to give an anecdote of my own, in a much smaller midwest hub, over five years and two jobs I've worked with: - A young woman from Russia - An African American (29% of the population, a hair under Chicago's) - An Indian (this isn't ext…

I grew up in the Midwest in a suburb of a small city. Looking at census data, it was 95%+ white while I was growing up. The most common profession for the minorities' parents I went to school with seemed to be...physician (mostly Indian, Middle Eastern, Asian).

Minorities were not really looked down on where I grew up, though there was certainly racism around. There were just not many minorities to be racist towards! If you go into the "big" cities in the Midwest it's a different story (I've heard all sorts of racist anecdotes from friends in Chicago and Indianapolis), but out where I grew up it didn't seem to be a thing.

Personally, my parents were much more judgmental of non-Christians (Judaism, Hindu, Islam). Dating people of other skin colors was a non-issue, but when my brother brought home a nice, white Jewish girl my father certainly wasn't pleased.

Re: On Being Midwestern: The Burden of Normality

#287

Post by weberc2 »

throwawayjava wrote: post #259
weberc2 wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with this view is that it describes correlates instead of causes, and worse--that it confuses the two: most people understand racism to mean something like "differences caused by race", and thus something that is morally reprehensible. Your example is one that is caused (though indirectly) by racism, but others examples are not causal but correlated (or at least so indirectly causal as to be meaningless)-…

I believe the reason that the root post is the top-voted comment is that it poses a helpful question: how do we fix this? My suggestion is that people stop being so damn concerned about their moral status and start caring more about actually fixing things . A system with de facto separate and unequal schools is just as bad as a system with de jure separate and unequal schools. Whether that's the result of an emergent…

> My suggestion is that people stop being so damn concerned about their moral status and start caring more about actually fixing things.

This is silly. Moral status is a necessary component of political capital. The entire reason the progressive left stuck to their confusing "systemic racism" term is because it conveniently allows them to strip dissidents and critics of the political capital necessary to implement their fixes or even advance the national discourse. Of course, we could think wishfully about a world where politics were irrelevant (as I sometimes do), but that's not productive.

Re: On Being Midwestern: The Burden of Normality

#288

Post by weberc2 »

humanrebar wrote: post #261
weberc2 wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with this view is that it describes correlates instead of causes, and worse--that it confuses the two: most people understand racism to mean something like "differences caused by race", and thus something that is morally reprehensible. Your example is one that is caused (though indirectly) by racism, but others examples are not causal but correlated (or at least so indirectly causal as to be meaningless)-…

It's a very obvious example of a motte and bailey argument. https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Motte_and_bailey

It absolutely is, but most of our population lacks a cursory familiarity with rhetoric to the gain of these progressives and other predatory groups. :(

Re: On Being Midwestern: The Burden of Normality

#290

Post by throwawayjava »

weberc2 wrote: post #287
throwawayjava wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe the reason that the root post is the top-voted comment is that it poses a helpful question: how do we fix this? My suggestion is that people stop being so damn concerned about their moral status and start caring more about actually fixing things . A system with de facto separate and unequal schools is just as bad as a system with de jure separate and unequal schools. Whether that's the result of an emergent…

> My suggestion is that people stop being so damn concerned about their moral status and start caring more about actually fixing things. This is silly. Moral status is a necessary component of political capital. The entire reason the progressive left stuck to their confusing "systemic racism" term is because it conveniently allows them to strip dissidents and critics of the political capital necessary to implement th…

What alternative term would you use to refer to racially disparate outcomes that are the result of how large systems operate?

The term "systemic racism" was coined and stuck because it's evocative of the actual idea, not as some sort of grand conspiracy to strip you of your honor.

But I don't care. We can call it "silly putty" if it means we can actually talk about it instead of closely defending our honor. And if you have an alternative name that is evocative of the underlying problem and doesn't offend you, I'd love to hear it.

> This is silly

It is my experience that when people disarm themselves, productive conversations are possible.

Perhaps I'm wrong. But if so, then there's no solution anyways. So we might as well try.

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