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I still love Kierkegaard

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Re: I still love Kierkegaard

#21

Post by jabretti »

coliveira wrote: post #5
bambax wrote: post #4

> Kierkegaard’s greatest illustration of this is his retelling of the story of Abraham and Isaac in Fear and Trembling (1843). Abraham is often held up as a paradigm of faith because he trusted God so much he was prepared to sacrifice his only son on his command. Kierkegaard makes us realize that Abraham acted on faith not because he obeyed a difficult order but because lifting the knife over his son defied all moral…

Like in mostly everything, the Bible is ambiguous about child sacrifice. A lesser known character, Jephthah, committed child sacrifice after wining a battle with the help of god, and in that case there was no scapegoat as in Isaac's tale.

Jepthah made a vow to sacrifice whoever walked out of his front door first when he returned home; the fact that it's his daughter is portrayed as a horrible twist (I guess he was hoping to sacrifice a servant or something? How did this guy not see it coming? Though I just read another interpretation, that he expected it to be one of his animals) and the approval or disapproval of God is not recorded, nor is whether he

The point of the story seems to be that you shouldn't go round making stupid oaths, not that you should sacrifice your children.

Re: I still love Kierkegaard

#22

Post by runesoerensen »

burntrelish1273 wrote: post #20
kraig911 wrote: post #12

Søren has always kind of put me off to philosophy and existentialism. Creating foundations within religion as matter of fact then using it as a principal to state everything is meaningless... my mind couldn't make the connection.

Exactly. It's noncommittal, inconsistent and still at the mercy and vulnerability of magical thinking. The positive part was watering-down ideas enough to be palatable to those whom were predominantly religious. Reality is too much for most people to accept, so they lie to themselves and each other.

> still at the mercy and vulnerability of magical thinking

What magical thinking are you referring to?

Re: I still love Kierkegaard

#23

Post by jmcqk6 »

coldtea wrote: post #18
jmcqk6 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>God sacrificing his own Son, which is also Him, in place of all sacrifices. The twist is more complex than that. God is sacrificing his own son, which is also him, to himself, in order to satisfy rules that he himself also put in place so that he doesn't have to send people he created and loves infinitely to be tortured forever in a place he created because they broke rules they couldn't understand with consequences…

That's not "more complex". That's the high school kind of "religion is absurd" reaction, and is a naive literal reading that even the people of the bible era were above. The key is that there are no "rules that he himself also put in place" etc. (as he doesn't exist and even if he did it wouldn't matter). The rules were formed by people (obviously) and codify societal practices and philosophies towards morality and r…

I was raised in one of those places where Old Testament beliefs are still championed and they believe in a literal bible. They absolutely believe as I described it, though they would not connect those beliefs together like I did.

There are millions of Christians like this in the US alone, let alone the rest of the world. I'm not sure what you're trying to push with your interpretation of christianity, but it's certainly not common, given that it assumes their god doesn't exist.

Re: I still love Kierkegaard

#24

Post by nrjames »

I always preferred Kierkegaard's contemporary, N.F.S. Grundtvig. If Kierkegaard was "you have to be a good Christian before you can be a good person," then Grundtvig was, "you have to be a good person before you can be a good Christian." As the ideological founder of the folk high school system in Scandinavia, he's had a long and lasting impact on the importance of education.

Re: I still love Kierkegaard

#25

Post by jmcqk6 »

doulos wrote: post #19
jmcqk6 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>God sacrificing his own Son, which is also Him, in place of all sacrifices. The twist is more complex than that. God is sacrificing his own son, which is also him, to himself, in order to satisfy rules that he himself also put in place so that he doesn't have to send people he created and loves infinitely to be tortured forever in a place he created because they broke rules they couldn't understand with consequences…

We can complain about the problem or be grateful for the Solution. The outcomes remain and the choice is ours.

Or you can say "that's absurd" and move on with your life.

Re: I still love Kierkegaard

#26

Post by racer-v »

interfixus wrote: post #13

Kierkegaard annoys the crap out out of me, as almost all philosophers do. But I will say this for the guy: He had humour. A weird, understated, tangled one, but he had it. Mind you, it is so tied up with his native language and culture, it ought not travel well. And judging by whatever translations I have seen, it hasn't. His worldwide fame is still a mystery to me. And by the way, correct pronunciation is something…

For a translation of his humor into English, see The Humor of Kierkegaard, ed. Thomas C. Oden. Some of it is laugh-out-loud funny, like his description of the ridiculousness of state religion:

"Rather than taking part in official Christianity with the thousandth part of my little-finger nail, I would rather engage in the following display of seriousness. A flag is purchased at a hardware store, it is unfurled; with great reverence I approach it, lift up three fingers and swear fidelity to the flag. Thereupon, rigged out in a cocked hat, a cartridge-belt and sword (all from the hardware store), I mount a hobbyhorse, proposing in union with others to make an attack upon the enemy, with contempt for the mortal danger into which I am evidently casting myself, with the seriousness of one who knows what it signifies to have sworn fidelity to the flag."

Kierkegaard's "Attack upon 'Christendom'" [277-78]

Re: I still love Kierkegaard

#27

Post by mirimir »

runesoerensen wrote: post #22
burntrelish1273 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. It's noncommittal, inconsistent and still at the mercy and vulnerability of magical thinking. The positive part was watering-down ideas enough to be palatable to those whom were predominantly religious. Reality is too much for most people to accept, so they lie to themselves and each other.

> still at the mercy and vulnerability of magical thinking What magical thinking are you referring to?

religion = magical thinking

Re: I still love Kierkegaard

#28

Post by Mediterraneo10 »

jmcqk6 wrote: post #14
quantumofmalice wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And of course Jesus is that exact same myth of child sacrifice (with a twist: he dies but lives again). The twist is more complex than that: it is God sacrificing his own Son, which is also Him, in place of all sacrifices. God becomes the scapegoat. Rene Girard talks about this idea in this interview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNkSBy5wWDk

>God sacrificing his own Son, which is also Him, in place of all sacrifices. The twist is more complex than that. God is sacrificing his own son, which is also him, to himself, in order to satisfy rules that he himself also put in place so that he doesn't have to send people he created and loves infinitely to be tortured forever in a place he created because they broke rules they couldn't understand with consequences…

As the other poster stated, this is a snarky dig at Christian doctrine by someone who has never actually examined Christian teaching within the philosophy of religion. I would strongly recommend reading e.g. Richard Swinburne's Responsibility and Atonement (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1989) for a reasonable depiction of Christian belief in this area. There are atheist critiques of the doctrine of the Atonement, of course (and disagreements between Western and Eastern Christianity concerning it), but one has to actually confront the claims in their fullness instead of posting that disingenuous, one-paragraph copy/paste snark.

Re: I still love Kierkegaard

#29

Post by theoh »

mirimir wrote: post #27
runesoerensen wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> still at the mercy and vulnerability of magical thinking What magical thinking are you referring to?

religion = magical thinking

Or, religion is, at least, a form of seeing meaning in things, which is the same category of activity as magical thinking.

Re: I still love Kierkegaard

#30

Post by jmcqk6 »

Mediterraneo10 wrote: post #28
jmcqk6 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>God sacrificing his own Son, which is also Him, in place of all sacrifices. The twist is more complex than that. God is sacrificing his own son, which is also him, to himself, in order to satisfy rules that he himself also put in place so that he doesn't have to send people he created and loves infinitely to be tortured forever in a place he created because they broke rules they couldn't understand with consequences…

As the other poster stated, this is a snarky dig at Christian doctrine by someone who has never actually examined Christian teaching within the philosophy of religion. I would strongly recommend reading e.g. Richard Swinburne's Responsibility and Atonement (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1989) for a reasonable depiction of Christian belief in this area. There are atheist critiques of the doctrine of the Atonement,…

>As the other poster stated, this is a snarky dig at Christian doctrine by someone who has never actually examined Christian teaching within the philosophy of religion.

That's a pretty bold claim from someone who only knows me from a few comments on a website. Just because I can snark about this, doesn't mean I'm unaware of the things you mention. Though since you called be disingenuous, you must have expected that as well.

But on the other hand, my time studying christianity ended a decade ago, and I have no unmet spiritual needs, so I doubt I will be taking another look at them at this time.

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