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Trade school, not 4-year college, is a better bet to solve the US income gap

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Re: Trade school, not 4-year college, is a better bet to solve the US income gap

#291

Post by Double_a_92 »

Consultant32452 wrote: post #285
Double_a_92 wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What? How is it stopping anyone from working or hiring?

Why do I need to go through your state approved apprenticeship program, which is going to be managed by wealthy incumbents, for the privilege of being able to perform work I already know how to perform on the open market? You're requiring the poor to get permission from the wealthy in order to work. Why?

16 year old kids already know how to be e.g. plumbers or electricians? Nice.

And also you dont NEED to. You can just learn it yourself and then somehow convince potential employers that you got the skills. What is stopping you from doing that?

Re: Trade school, not 4-year college, is a better bet to solve the US income gap

#292

Post by abstractbeliefs »

conductr wrote: post #195
abstractbeliefs wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Half the issue is that all these people have done exactly that: we now have a glut of college educated young people, with supply outstripping demand, while the opposite is the case in the trades. The salaries each can command reflects this. The tradesmen telling their children to go to uni do so based on their experience in a generation where there were far more tradesmen, with poorer salaries, and poorer worker prot…

> it's simply the case that half of jobs do not require a degree The problem I see in the US is that because of the glut of degrees, jobs that should not require a degree do require a degree. The employers are making things worse when they require degrees for menial jobs.

Yes, sorry, when I mean they don't require a degree, I mean that the job tasks do not require a university education. Because of how widespread degrees are now in the UK, the job ad often demands a degree, on account of this being a good signal of simply being "above average".

Re: Trade school, not 4-year college, is a better bet to solve the US income gap

#293

Post by Consultant32452 »

Double_a_92 wrote: post #291
Consultant32452 wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do I need to go through your state approved apprenticeship program, which is going to be managed by wealthy incumbents, for the privilege of being able to perform work I already know how to perform on the open market? You're requiring the poor to get permission from the wealthy in order to work. Why?

16 year old kids already know how to be e.g. plumbers or electricians? Nice. And also you dont NEED to. You can just learn it yourself and then somehow convince potential employers that you got the skills. What is stopping you from doing that?

Maybe you're not talking about the same thing Wahern is talking about.

Question: Let's say I know how to snake a sewer line. This is the kind of thing a handy home-owner would be able to rent the equipment for at Home Depot and do themselves if they were so inclined. That's literally the only plumbing skill I know. Can I offer that skill for sale on the open market to customers without first getting the permission of the state (certification on completion of apprenticeship) or an employer who offers me an apprenticeship?

Wahern is clearly saying that would not be possible. So that means that a poor person must get the permission of a wealthy plumbing business owner in order to sell their skills on the open market.

Re: Trade school, not 4-year college, is a better bet to solve the US income gap

#294

Post by wellboy »

johnnyanmac wrote: post #289
Noos wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Women in general wash out of the military at much higher rates than men, mostly due to the fact their bodies are less able to deal with the serious physical stress of training. Women also really aren't going to have as many long term openings in the skilled trades for the same reason, mostly because it's hard, breaking-down physical labor. There's little guarantee she can even do what you intend; she may very well go…

And yet there is almost zero cost to trying out the option at first (well, outside of the harassment I hear about in the military, but that is sadly a universal concern). In the best case, she has an option that lets her join the workforce with zero debt, in the very worst, she drops out and starts CC a year or two late (which is negligible in the large scheme of things). If her scores really aren't making her viable…

However, not getting a degree prevents you almost entirely you from making more than $100,000/year except in sales or you start your own business and make it successful (which is very hard without a degree), so you'll have to work until old ages and you'll never have the opportunity to get out of the hamster wheel.

Re: Trade school, not 4-year college, is a better bet to solve the US income gap

#295

Post by SapphireSun »

austenallred wrote: post #271
coolaliasbro wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you clarify the issue with parent's tone? I only read a set of rhetorical questions that made a slight appeal to emotion, which seems appropriate considering that the future of peoples' livelihoods are being discussed.

I reread it and didn't sense that tone at all. I wonder if it's possible the parent edited, because it seemed incredibly sarcastic earlier.

I don't recall. I think I did add a sentence or two, but I don't think I changed it enough to change your read of tone.

Re: Trade school, not 4-year college, is a better bet to solve the US income gap

#296

Post by SapphireSun »

smallnamespace wrote: post #220
SapphireSun wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've arrived at the unthinkable thought. Why indeed, in a very rich country, do any poor people at all exist? Why is this crime not remedied immediately? The only possible explanation in a democratic society, is that somehow the upper classes have rigged the system via political machinations, voter suppression, dividing the intermediate classes against each other, and propaganda. It's a sobering thought. We might a…

> Why indeed, in a very rich country, do any poor people at all exist? There's an inherent tension between low-wage immigration levels and building a strong social state. The stronger your social welfare protections, the stronger incentive there is for economic migrants to come (as Europe is also finding out), and the more voters perceive income and wealth transfers as mostly benefiting outsiders versus members of th…

There is a fourth option, though it's longer term. I think that's okay since we've been dealing with this problem for forever. Work together with other nations to raise their standards of living and labor.

We do some of that but then we also depose governments, start wars under the banner of drugs and terrorism. Those latter effects are huge and often not considered in concert with immigration policy. I'm stealing this analogy, but keeping these people out is like setting fire to someone's home and then locking the door.

Re: Trade school, not 4-year college, is a better bet to solve the US income gap

#297

Post by Double_a_92 »

Consultant32452 wrote: post #293
Double_a_92 wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

16 year old kids already know how to be e.g. plumbers or electricians? Nice. And also you dont NEED to. You can just learn it yourself and then somehow convince potential employers that you got the skills. What is stopping you from doing that?

Maybe you're not talking about the same thing Wahern is talking about. Question: Let's say I know how to snake a sewer line. This is the kind of thing a handy home-owner would be able to rent the equipment for at Home Depot and do themselves if they were so inclined. That's literally the only plumbing skill I know. Can I offer that skill for sale on the open market to customers without first getting the permission of…

I'd say yes. But I guess you would have problems getting clients to trust you. After all if e.g. some "random guy" messes around with your eletrical cables your house could catch fire... Or water could leak into your walls...
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