41–50 of 272 posts
I always love to hear about cultures where old people are the most respected of a society. I think such cultures are happier, because they ensure that the future looks bright, no matter how old someone is. But ... such cultures might be in conflict with the information society we have built.
Earlier quoted context omitted.
This mythology leads directly to horribly created software that will either ensure many terrible security breaches in the future or the continued proliferation of "magic" throughout a product. One of the issues is using the word "engineer" for any of the brogrammer types. an engineer in any other proper engineering discipline does not become worthless with age, their experience actually counts for something. Somehow…
> One of the issues is using the word "engineer" for any of the brogrammer types In Canada the term 'engineer' is regulated at the provincial level, and a person can be prosecuted for labeling themselves as an engineer if they are not registered and licensed with their province's engineering association. For example in Ontario in order to join Professional Engineers Ontario and call yourself an engineer you must meet…
Sounds like a racket, especially given that the PEO is a private organization. I’m not sure why this is supposed to be a good thing.
> Everyone who graduates from an accredited engineering program in Canada has to take an ethics course and has these rules drilled into their heads.
It bothers me that people believe that A) ethics can be taught like any other engineering class and B) ethics should be prescribed by some professional association.
> But then I graduated and half the people I run in to at hackathons and conferences did a two week bootcamp
I agree this is a problem, but most of the actual engineers I meet in real life (i.e. people who did a 4-or-more year accredited engineering program, including some who are from Canada) don’t actually have a particularly impressive level of rigor that would set them apart from most of the college-educated programmers I meet.
> In the nineteen-twenties, an engineer’s “half life of knowledge”—the time it took for half of his expertise to become obsolete—was thirty-five years. In the nineteen-sixties, it was a decade. Now it’s five years at most, and, for a software engineer, less than three. This sort of mythology is NOT helping. An experienced Software Engineer has valuable skills that do not age at all. Yes there are new languages and fr…
60 year old dev here. I have been living on the cutting edge of tech for 30 years, and I have many scars to prove it. New is usually not better if you actually want scalable, maintainable, and monetizable results. I disagree that many area's of my knowledge has a half life. My deep understanding of network protocols hasn't aged. My deep understanding of SQL and NoSQL databases hasn't aged. The principles of distribut…
I'm not knocking coding bootcamps or colleges, I've had hires from both. I'm moreso saying that the idea that a programmers skills are isolated to the code they currently can write is a little shortsighted.
Earlier quoted context omitted.
This mythology leads directly to horribly created software that will either ensure many terrible security breaches in the future or the continued proliferation of "magic" throughout a product. One of the issues is using the word "engineer" for any of the brogrammer types. an engineer in any other proper engineering discipline does not become worthless with age, their experience actually counts for something. Somehow…
> One of the issues is using the word "engineer" for any of the brogrammer types In Canada the term 'engineer' is regulated at the provincial level, and a person can be prosecuted for labeling themselves as an engineer if they are not registered and licensed with their province's engineering association. For example in Ontario in order to join Professional Engineers Ontario and call yourself an engineer you must meet…
Personally I don't see a problem with this. That's their job title. Whether they have a P. Eng and can legally sign documents is another matter.
You are correct that technically they cannot walk around saying "I am a Software Engineer" unless they are a Professional Engineer. But I don't see the harm of someone saying "I work as a Software Engineer in X company" because:
- that's their job title
- the company chose the title and hired them for that role knowing their qualifications
- to my knowledge there are no legal restrictions on what title a company can give a role
If you want to go after someone calling themselves a "Software Engineer" when they're not a P. Eng I would argue you should go after the company for advertising an "engineer" position without hiring a P. Eng.
Edit: my argument here is that professional engineer licensing bodies should go after companies hiring engineering graduates to fill an "X Engineer" role the same as they would go after an individual falsely claiming to be a P.Eng.
It's stupid to allow companies to hire someone without a P.Eng to an "Engineer" role and then chastise the person for calling themselves by their job title.
Earlier quoted context omitted.
This mythology leads directly to horribly created software that will either ensure many terrible security breaches in the future or the continued proliferation of "magic" throughout a product. One of the issues is using the word "engineer" for any of the brogrammer types. an engineer in any other proper engineering discipline does not become worthless with age, their experience actually counts for something. Somehow…
> One of the issues is using the word "engineer" for any of the brogrammer types In Canada the term 'engineer' is regulated at the provincial level, and a person can be prosecuted for labeling themselves as an engineer if they are not registered and licensed with their province's engineering association. For example in Ontario in order to join Professional Engineers Ontario and call yourself an engineer you must meet…
Met one that was doing R&D projects for big corps and used "young" freelancers for it, "because they know all the new tech!"
But what I heard was "because they're cheap!"
In my experience, young people won't hire older people, only if they are really cream of the crop.
The only companies I worked for that had >40 or even >50 year old people were those with >40 year old directors.
Earlier quoted context omitted.
Not really. Ageism seems largely concentrated on the Silicon-Valley style society. As far as I am concerned, ageism does not exist at my workplace. Old engineers, even software engineers are looked for because they bring possibly valueable experience. The simple truth is that ageism is a result of not valuing the lessons of an experienced engineer because they're not up-to-date enough.
Setting ageism aside (which is certainly real), perhaps it’s also related to what the company is optimizing for. For example, it’s now clear that companies like Twitter only optimized for number of supposed real users. I’m sure they had no appetite for to hear lessons from an experienced engineer. “Hey, what if this platform becomes a cesspool — a potent vector for hate and fraud, infested with fake accounts?” “Shut…
20-something: "Sign me up, bro! This entry-level salary is more than twice what my parents make combined!"
30-something: "I'm torn, but I still have student loans to pay off..."
40-something: "Will I be proud to tell my kids I built this?"
> In the nineteen-twenties, an engineer’s “half life of knowledge”—the time it took for half of his expertise to become obsolete—was thirty-five years. In the nineteen-sixties, it was a decade. Now it’s five years at most, and, for a software engineer, less than three. This sort of mythology is NOT helping. An experienced Software Engineer has valuable skills that do not age at all. Yes there are new languages and fr…
The only timeless ageism thing is the willingness of old men to schnooker young turks into things, whether that is getting blown up on a battlefield for king and country or getting exploited to make guys like Khosla money.
Pervasive communications technology has increased the number of choices that we have. We are suddenly all in competition with many more people. That means that superficial signals like age and culture rise in importance just to reduce the search space. It's Tinder-ification.
Earlier quoted context omitted.
> One of the issues is using the word "engineer" for any of the brogrammer types In Canada the term 'engineer' is regulated at the provincial level, and a person can be prosecuted for labeling themselves as an engineer if they are not registered and licensed with their province's engineering association. For example in Ontario in order to join Professional Engineers Ontario and call yourself an engineer you must meet…
> and have "Software Engineer" in their job title, and proudly introduce themselves as such. Personally I don't see a problem with this. That's their job title. Whether they have a P. Eng and can legally sign documents is another matter. You are correct that technically they cannot walk around saying "I am a Software Engineer" unless they are a Professional Engineer. But I don't see the harm of someone saying "I work…
The meaning of engineering on the other hand has been watered down to be meaningless. There are no professional standards and no control on what companies represent their staff to be. It sounds prestigious as a title, but that’s about the end of it.