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Dell’s gamble on Linux laptops has paid off

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Re: Dell’s gamble on Linux laptops has paid off

#101

Post by jasonkostempski »

jmkni wrote: post #31
luka-birsa wrote: post #6

As a 20 year Linux user I really appreciate Dells support in proving the market exists. This improved support across all manufacturers. I've recently acquired a HP Envy 13 2017 laptop with Windows preinstalled. I've really wanted to try Windows out, but after installing Google Chrome and Docker (1hr after starting it up) it stopped working - windows boot up into a blank black screen. In a hurry I've downloaded Ubuntu…

Windows has gotten a lot better, but the rules regarding new computers hasn't changed in the past 30 years, you still need to wipe the hard drive and install it yourself from scratch, and then spend a little time disabling the ads, bing crap, telemetry, etc. Once you do, it's rock solid, but it should be OOTB and it annoys me that it isn't. It leaves those not familiar with Windows with a bad first impression, and th…

"It leaves those not familiar with Windows with a bad first impression"

But an accurate impression. Windows main focus is Microsoft and partners product sales and ad delivery. No matter how much you remove after install, they're likely to override your very obvious wishes not to be bothered in a forced update.

Re: Dell’s gamble on Linux laptops has paid off

#102

Post by gegenschall »

jmkni wrote: post #31
luka-birsa wrote: post #6

As a 20 year Linux user I really appreciate Dells support in proving the market exists. This improved support across all manufacturers. I've recently acquired a HP Envy 13 2017 laptop with Windows preinstalled. I've really wanted to try Windows out, but after installing Google Chrome and Docker (1hr after starting it up) it stopped working - windows boot up into a blank black screen. In a hurry I've downloaded Ubuntu…

Windows has gotten a lot better, but the rules regarding new computers hasn't changed in the past 30 years, you still need to wipe the hard drive and install it yourself from scratch, and then spend a little time disabling the ads, bing crap, telemetry, etc. Once you do, it's rock solid, but it should be OOTB and it annoys me that it isn't. It leaves those not familiar with Windows with a bad first impression, and th…

> Windows has gotten a lot better [...]

Remember when we used to say the same thing about Linux? Funny how times change.

Re: Dell’s gamble on Linux laptops has paid off

#103

Post by pjmlp »

microcolonel wrote: post #92
blntechie wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never get to see same smoothness in graphics and fonts as MacOS/Windows/ChromeOS in the same machine with Linux. Every single time I decide that I'm moving to Linux, I give up after living with the browsers for a day or two. Rendering and fonts are just inferior to other systems in my experience.

> I never get to see same smoothness in graphics and fonts as MacOS/Windows/ChromeOS in the same machine with Linux. Well, Chrome OS runs the same stuff as your average Linux distro, however maybe most distros don't turn on subpixel antialiasing in their FontConfig out of the box. (I don't know because I've been sharing configs between machines of the same distro for about five years).

ChromeOS uses Chrome own rendering engine, based on Skia.

https://www.chromium.org/blink/slimming-paint

https://www.chromium.org/developers/design-documents/gpu-acc...

Skia can only use what the underlying graphics drivers offer.

Re: Dell’s gamble on Linux laptops has paid off

#104

Post by pjmlp »

microcolonel wrote: post #97
pjmlp wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure it does, proper GPU acceleration, hybrid graphics support and hibernation that actually works, and UI/UX tooling resembling Xerox PARC way of computing, only beaten by macOS. Not everyone wants to replicate a PDP-11.

> proper GPU acceleration What GPU is this? > only beaten by macOS Well, you said you wanted "proper GPU acceleration", macOS GPU drivers are terrible. They're unstable, they have limp shader compilers, they are CPU-intensive, and in the case of OpenGL, they are behind by nearly six years in terms of features. Today, your sleek MacBook Pro supports considerably fewer modern GPU features than your average entry-level…

> What GPU is this?

Any capable of DirectX 12, but only gets OpenGL 4.3 drivers or similar on GNU/Linux.

Or my AMD Brazos one on a Linux netbook, DirectX 11 class, which only gets OpenGL 3.3 drivers.

Regarding OpenGL on macOS, I don't care, that is what rendering engines are for, and all relevant ones already support Metal 2.

Re: Dell’s gamble on Linux laptops has paid off

#105

Post by pjmlp »

jenscow wrote: post #73
pjmlp wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some developers enjoy a graphical IDE worlds, keyboard shortcuts + mouse, not everyone feels likes developer == "UNIX user/CLI".

IDE vs CLI has nothing to do with it. Windows isn't the only OS that has a graphical IDE - likewise Bash is available on Windows. (all of my tools are available on both systems)

> IDE vs CLI has nothing to do with it.

Sure it has, because it springs from the developer culture on each OS, and the main reason why good UI/UX research is so hard on GNU/Linux systems.

It is always an uphill battle, as GNOME and KDE devs know about.

Also note that I pair macOS with Windows on my list.

Re: Dell’s gamble on Linux laptops has paid off

#106

Post by dotancohen »

chx wrote: post #17
luka-birsa wrote: post #6

As a 20 year Linux user I really appreciate Dells support in proving the market exists. This improved support across all manufacturers. I've recently acquired a HP Envy 13 2017 laptop with Windows preinstalled. I've really wanted to try Windows out, but after installing Google Chrome and Docker (1hr after starting it up) it stopped working - windows boot up into a blank black screen. In a hurry I've downloaded Ubuntu…

As another 20+ (24 actually, 0.99pl15) Linux user let me counter: with the Linux subsystem for Windows there's no reason to wrestle with Linux any more. While Linux certainly works on laptops it doesn't work well. Wifi and battery life are absymal and for me seemingly every other update either breaks the printer half or the scanner half of the MFC device (and if not, then it's time for another bluetooth breakage, you…

As another 16+ (2001, not sure which kernel) Linux user let me counter: with Ubuntu there's no reason to wrestle with Linux any more.

Wifi, Bluetooth, HD resolutions, keyboard buttons, printers, everything just seems to work in Ubuntu, and this has been the case for quite a few years now.

Re: Dell’s gamble on Linux laptops has paid off

#107

Post by dualogy »

pjmlp wrote: post #69
jenscow wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I develop for Windows, but I use Linux. I find Windows to be a hindrance (I've used it from v3.1 to 7, so it's nothing to do with unfamiliarity). Microsoft may be trying to become developer friendly - but their OS certainly is not, and increasingly so.

Some developers enjoy a graphical IDE worlds, keyboard shortcuts + mouse, not everyone feels likes developer == "UNIX user/CLI".

> Some developers enjoy a graphical IDE worlds, keyboard shortcuts + mouse

Many devs using Linux do too. Every single one out of many many dozens of Desktop Environment and/or Window Manager combinations let you enjoy all these. Just a matter of familiarity. VS is certainly a neat IDE and always was since I first played with it ~17-18 years ago, but hasn't been the only player in a long time now. Unless you need to use every single feature and tool from its up-to-120GB of installation size (with everything selected) --- never met anyone who does..

Re: Dell’s gamble on Linux laptops has paid off

#108

Post by gargravarr »

At my company, most of the developers use Ubuntu end-user machines, all from Dell. Not only does this avoid us having to pay for Windows licenses we never use, but we know the hardware is actually going to work fine with it. There's some quirks, of course - Ubuntu doesn't much like the 4k screens in our 13" XPSen so there's a lot of tweaking involved, but we're getting some very good hardware at a good price, and stuff just works. It's the right choice to target the high-end of the market, since the users are likely highly Linux-knowledgeable and so far we've never had to contact Dell for any software issues, which is going to improve their profits while our stuff just keeps working.

The only issue is the long lead times between actually ordering a batch of laptops and them being dispatched. It can be a fortnight or more. Currently I (as the sysadmin) keep a cupboard full of them ready for use, but I never look forward to ordering more.

Re: Dell’s gamble on Linux laptops has paid off

#109

Post by dotancohen »

teisman wrote: post #87
Const-me wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I develop for both, but I use Windows. Until there're Adobe Photoshop & Illustrator for Linux, no professional UI development is possible on that OS.

I use Linux, despite the absence of these essential tools. In my ideal world software vendors would start supporting Linux, and this is why I created SoftwareOnLinux.com - to create pressure groups and give vendors insights in the demand for their software on Linux. Would be cool if you'd show demand for Photoshop through this page: https://www.softwareonlinux.com/programs/8-adobe-photoshop

I cannot sign up, I'm getting this error on submitting the sign up form: ": The response parameter is missing."

Firefox 57, CentOS 7.3 desktop

Re: Dell’s gamble on Linux laptops has paid off

#110

Post by gargravarr »

jasonkostempski wrote: post #101
jmkni wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Windows has gotten a lot better, but the rules regarding new computers hasn't changed in the past 30 years, you still need to wipe the hard drive and install it yourself from scratch, and then spend a little time disabling the ads, bing crap, telemetry, etc. Once you do, it's rock solid, but it should be OOTB and it annoys me that it isn't. It leaves those not familiar with Windows with a bad first impression, and th…

"It leaves those not familiar with Windows with a bad first impression" But an accurate impression. Windows main focus is Microsoft and partners product sales and ad delivery. No matter how much you remove after install, they're likely to override your very obvious wishes not to be bothered in a forced update.

It's for this reason that I have sworn off never, ever managing Windows again. The fact that they have turned many Win10 machines into billboards - and this is an OS you have to pay for! - really makes me sick. You cannot get away from advertising built deep into the core of the OS. And MS have deliberately taken away a lot of the control admins have over their own LAN. Even Enterprise editions of Win10 don't have control of the telemetry.

And yes, I've seen first-hand the updates steamrollering your preferences and setting them to nice, MS-friendly 'please target me with marketing' options. I gave up Windows in 2008, was Mac full-time until 2015 and now I run Ubuntu exclusively, at home and work. Canonical aren't perfect, but they're a bit more open about their commercial expectations than MS will ever be.

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