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Numpy: Plan for dropping Python 2.7 support

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Re: Numpy: Plan for dropping Python 2.7 support

#131

Post by sprash »

crusso wrote: post #108
Figs wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but the community could continue to reject Python3 instead as it had been doing for years . It seems like it is catching on a bit now, but I hadn't really seen any good reason for it other than the upcoming EOL.

Look at the statement from the numpy group: The NumPy project has supported both Python 2 and Python 3 in parallel since 2010, and has found that supporting Python 2 is an increasing burden on our limited resources; That's a real team saying that they just can't support 2 major versions of the language any longer.

That is like the biggest fake argument ever. There is plenty of resources and Python 2 support is neither a burden nor this burden in any way increasing. The are plenty of people ready to step up to continue Py2 support (Even I would be glad to help).

This is a pure political decision based on ideology.

Re: Numpy: Plan for dropping Python 2.7 support

#132

Post by obblekk »

One of the early principles of python was there is one idiomatic python way of doing it. Usefully, this enforced a world-wide code style guide, making it easy to read python code.

2.7 and 3.x essentially forked the language, enabling different idiomatic ways to do the same thing which reduced this particular advantage of python. I'm looking forward to seeing the community merge up again.

Re: Numpy: Plan for dropping Python 2.7 support

#133

Post by pdknsk »

I was surprised to recently notice a yellow banner on the website of the very popular Requests library, which urges users to switch to Python 3. That's when I first thought switching may become inevitable. I guess this is being orchestrated behind the scenes now.

https://docs.python-requests.org

Still, I have no plans to switch. The only useful feature in Python 3 to me is more liberal use of unpacking. Unfortunately it comes at the cost of removed tuple parameter unpacking, which I use often, but most users apparently never do. I don't know what's difficult about Unicode in Python 2 either, once you understand the difference between Unicode and UTF-8.

It's unfortunate it ever had to come to this. Makes you wonder what Python would be like today without Py3K. (It's an open question.)

Re: Numpy: Plan for dropping Python 2.7 support

#134

Post by jlarocco »

Figs wrote: post #43
fredley wrote: post #10

Good. The glacial migration from Python 2 to 3 is one of the worst things about an otherwise fantastic ecosystem. The tide is turning though, with Django having already dropped support for 2, and now with Numpy too hopefully Python 2 can be properly consigned to the history books. For people wondering why it's been like this for almost a decade(!) since Python 3.0 was released: Python 3.0 was actually terrible. It la…

Frankly, I still haven't seen a single reason to switch to Python3 beyond the fact that the original authors have gotten bored of providing security and bugfix updates and will stop in 2020. That's it. The only thing in the last decade or so of Python3's existence that even got me slightly interested in using it was asyncio, and after looking into it a bit, it frankly seems like more trouble than its worth. I know Py…

Nobody is forcing you to stop using Python 2.7, but the rest of the world is getting over it and moving on.

I'm sorry if that seems mean, but in the grand scheme of things the differences between 2 and 3 are pretty trivial, and most people still complaining about this are just being stubborn. I refuse to believe somebody can know Python 2.7 "extremely well" but then also need more than ten years to learn the few areas where Python 3 is different.

Re: Numpy: Plan for dropping Python 2.7 support

#135

Post by gtaylor »

sprash wrote: post #131
crusso wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look at the statement from the numpy group: The NumPy project has supported both Python 2 and Python 3 in parallel since 2010, and has found that supporting Python 2 is an increasing burden on our limited resources; That's a real team saying that they just can't support 2 major versions of the language any longer.

That is like the biggest fake argument ever. There is plenty of resources and Python 2 support is neither a burden nor this burden in any way increasing. The are plenty of people ready to step up to continue Py2 support (Even I would be glad to help). This is a pure political decision based on ideology.

You can fork numpy and maintain Python 2 support.

Re: Numpy: Plan for dropping Python 2.7 support

#136

Post by jimmaswell »

fredley wrote: post #10

Good. The glacial migration from Python 2 to 3 is one of the worst things about an otherwise fantastic ecosystem. The tide is turning though, with Django having already dropped support for 2, and now with Numpy too hopefully Python 2 can be properly consigned to the history books. For people wondering why it's been like this for almost a decade(!) since Python 3.0 was released: Python 3.0 was actually terrible. It la…

When I use python as a scripting language for small tasks I want something concise and convenient that just works. Python 3 is a downgrade in all those areas. I want to just some input into a string, do some operations on it, and print the result. Now I have to make extra special sure to convert the string between binary or utf8 as appropriate, catch encoding exceptions, not try to print anything that might have binary in it, and even the simple print statement was caught in this impractical mess that feels like it was designed by an out of touch academic committee comprised of people who'd never written real code in their lives deciding that string should actually mean only printable characters within a defined encoding and that statements are considered harmful. I can't wait for return to be a function too in python 4.

Re: Numpy: Plan for dropping Python 2.7 support

#137

Post by acqq »

thanksgiving wrote: post #121
acqq wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think the amount of Python 2 source code existing in the world is too large for Python 2.7.x to stop working. Exactly. And that is the major fu up that Python 3 brought. There was no fundamental reason to make most of the Python 2 code incompatible with the "better" and "newer" version. The really good Python 3 would have accepted most of the Python 2 code and execute it, while allowing the new 3 "goodies." Only…

Only Python 3? Are we there? I thought we are not there yet? I thought there is a big push going on for fedora to go Python 3 only and it will likely not end before end of next year? I imagine Debian and Red Hat and Canonical will continue python 2 default for a while? I'd be happy if I'm wrong though...

> Only Python 3? Are we there?

In my experience, for my purposes and use cases, obviously not, exactly as I wrote above. And it didn't have to be that way for most of the code, I claim that, knowing how little additional code were needed to have a different result: compare with the Linux Kernel, much more complex piece of code, where "kernel never breaks user code" because Linus set that goal. Python is much, much less complex than Linux Kernel, and the same goal was possible: not breaking at least most of code written for 2, while still allowing different new code. The overhead would be insignificant. Note that even without that overhead, Python 3 was (maybe still is) significantly slower than 2. So there is really no valid excuse.

Re: Numpy: Plan for dropping Python 2.7 support

#138

Post by leshow »

Figs wrote: post #111
SatvikBeri wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Optional type annotations did it for me - I don't usually use them, but I find them very helpful on a few types of tasks.

Could you please elaborate on this?

You can write type annotations in 3. The benefits there are the same that come with most optional typing. https://docs.python.org/3/library/typing.html

Re: Numpy: Plan for dropping Python 2.7 support

#139

Post by stordoff »

Figs wrote: post #43
fredley wrote: post #10

Good. The glacial migration from Python 2 to 3 is one of the worst things about an otherwise fantastic ecosystem. The tide is turning though, with Django having already dropped support for 2, and now with Numpy too hopefully Python 2 can be properly consigned to the history books. For people wondering why it's been like this for almost a decade(!) since Python 3.0 was released: Python 3.0 was actually terrible. It la…

Frankly, I still haven't seen a single reason to switch to Python3 beyond the fact that the original authors have gotten bored of providing security and bugfix updates and will stop in 2020. That's it. The only thing in the last decade or so of Python3's existence that even got me slightly interested in using it was asyncio, and after looking into it a bit, it frankly seems like more trouble than its worth. I know Py…

For me, it was Unicode - it was much easier to move to Python3 than trying to retrofit my Python2 code base to use Unicode.

Re: Numpy: Plan for dropping Python 2.7 support

#140

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