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Schneier: It's Time to Regulate IoT to Improve Cyber-Security

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Re: Schneier: It's Time to Regulate IoT to Improve Cyber-Security

#81
There are two pieces here, and Schneier (or at least this tiny summary of him) is wrong on both.

First, yes of course automobiles are regulated and should be. The fact that some things that are and should be regulated include embedded internet hosts does not mean that all devices that include embedded internet hosts should be regulated. This is basic logic.

Second, holding one set of botnet victims responsible for the harms suffered by another (overlapping) set of botnet victims is perverse. Every host should be "secure"; very few are. A secure host wouldn't be a victim of a botnet, either by donating processor cycles or receiving unwanted traffic. If lawyers really need a job security program, consider that ISPs have lots of money and they actually could reduce DOS attacks; why not hold them responsible?

Re: Schneier: It's Time to Regulate IoT to Improve Cyber-Security

#82
post #75

Can't legislate security into existence...at least not very safely

You seem to be suggesting a law must say "the maker of any unsafe insecure product is subject to 50 years of jail or $4million".

More realistically, legislators should be crafting incentives. Establish liability statutes. Carve out liability exceptions for companies that can show they used industry best practices, hired engineers that are members of professional/industry organizations, pay for ethics training, establish good faith effort of security development (unit tests, integration tests, traffic encryption, encryption at rest, well designed key exchange architecture, software/firmware update architecture for at least X years after sale, etc).

Conversely, if a company does none of the above, it's easier for a consumer or an Attorney General to bring a case against the company, even if it's years too late to be useful.

The problem with litigation (as well as "free-market" solutions) is that this generally doesn't happen fast enough. The security damage of IoT will be externalized extremely quickly. Being able to identify and sue a foreign company that is far up the supply chain from the end-product.

Re: Schneier: It's Time to Regulate IoT to Improve Cyber-Security

#83

Bullshit. What makes 'IoT' any different from an ordinary network-connected computer? You're either saying "it's time to regulate networked computing devices" or, "I want to carve out an easygoing regulation-free niche for MY product[s] to artificially excel in." I try not to be needleslly pessimistic, but this article has no definition of 'IoT' beyond 'networked computer with sensor', so three guesses as to which on…

> What makes 'IoT' any different from an ordinary network-connected computer?

Basically the same things that make, say, 'rats' different from an ordinary human being: specialization, capabilities, defenses, and deployment density.

A different response might be needed to deal with millions of rats moving into your town compared to what worked when 15,000 juggalos congregated for the ICP music festival.

They're both 'mammals', true; they both sleep and eat cheese. But they still might necessitate different strategies to manage or cope with them.

(Having said that, I am still deeply skeptical of governmental regulation as a solution. I think Schneier is right about the scope of the problem, and that it's a perfect example of the class of problem that markets can't fix. Although trying to hold device makers liable might help somewhat, I'm afraid that the problem is like global warming — in theory, there are various solutions that might devise, but in practice human societies, even the minority of them that might have their shit sufficiently together to address the problem on their own, still aren't capable of the level of coordination required, so what we really need to do is "get ready to deal with it, because there's no way to stop it".)

Re: Schneier: It's Time to Regulate IoT to Improve Cyber-Security

#84
Government regulation doesn’t infer that a technology will be better. IoT is a very immature industry/technology. Adding a byzantine of obsolete compliance laws is a good way to hamper this industry.

If we are going to regulate, we need to improve laws for consumer electronics across the board, with all the big players on board and participating.

Re: Schneier: It's Time to Regulate IoT to Improve Cyber-Security

#85
It is a bit out of control. I've written a small Python script [1] that finds dozens of vulnerable devices within minutes just by checking random IP addresses. There shouldn't be that many poorly secured devices floating around out there. It shouldn't be that easy to find them.

[1] https://github.com/wybiral/dex

Re: Schneier: It's Time to Regulate IoT to Improve Cyber-Security

#86

I am cautiously leaning towards the perspecive that Schneier is right. This problem is not going to be solved by market forces. Ordinary non technical consumers will buy things like wifi security cameras for the absolute cheapest price at $45/unit, based on them having attractive retail packages or what appears to be a good feature set/spec/price. I have not seen any signs that people are moving away from known-insec…

Hell, even for highly technical users it's almost impossible to evaluate a lot of this stuff.

I mean, I program embedded systems for a living - and I couldn't tell you which IoT dash camera or digital camera with wifi or internet-connected car entertainment system is secure.

Re: Schneier: It's Time to Regulate IoT to Improve Cyber-Security

#87
post #20

Even though many people scoff at the idea of government regulations, the economic incentives in IoT security are really all messed up and it's not really clear that the market will fix itself because so much of the damage can be externalized somehow. Does the manufacturer of a cheap and outdated IoT device care if it's participating in some ddos attack? Or like Schneier said, does the consumers care if they don't not…

> opening the source code once security updates for the device stop, so consumers could help themselves That might help the readers of HN, but not users in general. Most users won't bother installing security updates for their PC if it's not forced on them. Updating one's light bulbs with something off github is a non-starter.

If it's at least theoretically possible for a knowledgeable user to fix their devices, that's a pretty big improvement over it being a totally unfixable black box. For something like a lightbulb most people wouldn't bother, but if it's something like a car, a person without the technical skills to fix it themselves can pay someone else to do it.

Re: Schneier: It's Time to Regulate IoT to Improve Cyber-Security

#88
post #20

Even though many people scoff at the idea of government regulations, the economic incentives in IoT security are really all messed up and it's not really clear that the market will fix itself because so much of the damage can be externalized somehow. Does the manufacturer of a cheap and outdated IoT device care if it's participating in some ddos attack? Or like Schneier said, does the consumers care if they don't not…

> One thing that could hurt the market is maybe making manufacturers liable for the damages caused by security holes in their devices

That's what insurance is for. Something like this was discussed in my torts class in law school, except that was long before IoT devices existed so it was about things like lawn mowers.

The idea is that it might make the most sense economically to make the lawn mower manufacturer liable when users cut off a finger or toe, even if it was due to consumer stupidity instead of any negligence on the part of the manufacturer, because the manufacturer is in the best position to estimate the risks and purchase insurance to cover them.

Presumably, the manufacturer will pass on the costs of those insurance premiums to the consumers. The manufacturer still has an incentive to try to build safe mowers, because if their insurance company ends up paying out a lot the premiums will go up. They can pass those higher premiums on to the consumers, of course, but that will make them more expensive than their safer competitors.

The manufacturer is in a good position to deal with insuring for these injuries because they know how many mowers they are selling. Other candidates have less useful information. For example, a consumer usually has no idea what their chances are of suffering a lawn mower accident, so have no idea how to decide how much insurances is needed. Health insurance companies will have a good idea in the aggregate of how many of these accidents occur in a year, but they have no idea which of their customers use lawn mowers.

Done right, this should not hurt a market much.

I'm not sure it could work for IoT, though, because a lot of IoT devices are made by new companies that probably will not be around long. With things like lawn mowers, you could takes years to get around to cutting your hand off, and still reasonably expect the manufacturer to be around. Not so with a lot of IoT devices.

Re: Schneier: It's Time to Regulate IoT to Improve Cyber-Security

#90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And all for what? So you can turn the lights on after you go through multiple steps to unlock your phone? I wanted network-connected lightbulbs so I could have them turn on at the time I needed to wake up, when that time was well before dawn. I never installed them because I didn't know how to secure them and my schedule got more reasonable, but I think the use case is pretty compelling.

Why would light bulbs need to be connected to the Internet for the use case of being turned on at a specific time? They'd just need to be connected to a timer for this. I mean, an Internet connected light bulb use-case would a bulb that flashed whenever a stock you owned went down in price, which is ridiculous despite being the least ridiculous example I could think of. IoT security cameras and an automated kitchen y…

It doesn’t matter whether you know of any use cases or not. Somebody else does. Don’t interfere with their liberties.
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