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The Shock of Sweden's Housing Market Is Hitting the Country's Currency

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Re: The Shock of Sweden's Housing Market Is Hitting the Country's Currency

#331
Some of my thoughts regarding the housing market, they come from both observing the market and from first hand experience by selling in Sept 2017.

- A widespread mindset of people living in Stockholm has been that the housing prices will continue upwards because they have been doing so for 15+ years. A change to this mindset was starting to be noticed in the spring of 2017 and recently rapidly changed. 66% believed in rising prices in September 2017 compared to 43% in October[1].

- The time it takes to sell an apartment in Stockholm is up from ~3-4 days to weeks.

- It was previously possible to earn $10k - $50k by flipping a newly produced apartment. This was done by commiting to buy the apartment when it is finished by paying a deposit and then sell it when you get the keys. This opportunity ceased to exist around the end of 2016.

- Trusted sources such as Svensk Mäklarstatistik[2] and Valueguard[3] indicate that the fall in prices is around 3% - 5% this far. Untrusted sources[4] indicate that the fall is above 10%. Trusted sources uses formulas to give better stability to their indexes, but they also react slower than the untrusted sources due to that. I suspect that untrusted sources also use data points that are removed even though they failed to close the deal.

- The difference between renting and cost of ownership is still huge, would estimate a 400% increase in interest rate would make the costs about even.

- About 56 250 (24.96% of total) people aged 20 - 27 in Stockholm are still living with their parents even though they would like to move to their own place. In the central parts of the city this share is above 60%. [5]

- Rising prices, difference between renting and cost of ownership and flipping of newly produced apartments has attracted a lot of people that invest/speculate in buying and renting out. They have probably not realized until now when the prices start to dip that they are sitting with a huge leverage on their investment/speculation and what risk that comes with. So they are probably the first ones to panic.

- Production of new apartments has exploded in Sweden the last 2 years, most of these are quite expensive which might have saturated the higher end of the market.

- The increase of prices has acted as jet fuel for different industries since a lot of people feel rich, increase their mortgage and consume the money. Companies that work with home makeover will be the first to get hit, but new car sales will also dip.

With this said I cannot be other than uncertain about the direction of the market, there are still a lot of things that indicate that the prices will increase (cost of ownership vs rent, demand for housing, interest rate prognosis). But if the market keep going down I am quite certain that it will drag a lot of other stuff with it and become a self fulfilling prophecy.

Edit: Sorry for a lot of typos and language that could be improved, just did a brain dump in a rush.

[1] http://www.privataaffarer.se/bostad/seb-hushallens-boprisfor...

[2] https://www.maklarstatistik.se/omrade/riket/stockholms-lan/s...

[3] http://www.valueguard.se/stockholmbr

[4] https://husmask.se/kommun/stockholm/

[5] https://www.svd.se/en-tredjedel-av-stockholms-unga-tvingas-b...

Re: The Shock of Sweden's Housing Market Is Hitting the Country's Currency

#332
post #324
post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alternate economic views are incomprehensible?

No, not at all. Other economic views are definitely comprehensible to me, however this particular one is mind boggling because me and OP seem to have genuinely incompatible principals and values. "housing should be free" - according to who? What entity is coercing the 'should' in that sentence? What law of nature says that housing should be free? It implies in a society that you have a right to someone else's time an…

I mean, in every modern country you have the right to someone elses time and labor. Most places have socialized medicine, literal usage of someones elses time for free and compensated by society as a whole, you use roads you didn't directly pay for, etc.

In a lot of places you can (or used to) get free water. Literally other peoples work for free.

Almost all the structural parts of modern society are built on providing people with services for free that come from the tax pool. You can even, depending on country, get free housing through poverty programs!

But in general, modern states exist in part to forcibly take from some to give to others by the whims of the majority. They all do it. "Public" housing is just another proposition in that spectrum of policies.

But specifically:

> according to who?

Currently them, but if it were according to most in most democracies that would mean it would eventually become law.

> What entity is coercing the 'should' in that sentence?

States, as with all other legal uses of force.

> What law of nature says that housing should be free?

No law of nature says property rights exist (especially intellectual property), but we make those up to establish civilization.

You can definitely be ideologically opposed to those ideas! But their existence shouldn't be a surprise, humans have been establishing radically different rules of society for millennia from one another, and seeing someone on the Internet propose something you find far out should be expected!

Re: The Shock of Sweden's Housing Market Is Hitting the Country's Currency

#333
post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I absolutely hate speaking to Swedish people who invest all of their retirement savings in their home. It just breaks my heart to know that they are taking on a very high risk by putting all of their eggs into one, figurative basket when other types of investing are not only less risky but also often present more of a reward too. And, add the fact that investing in your house is one of the least helpful investments f…

How do they "invest" in their home? Renovate it to the max, keep buying a more expensive one or paying off your loan?

They buy more expensive homes than they need (or stay in the one that housed a family of four way after their kids have moved out) and pay off the mortgage. That's "saving" for retirement; they expect to get the money they've payed on their mortgage back when they sell it. Some practically only pay off the interest because we can do generous deductions off it and we have low demands of paying off the principal (or at least we used to have, now the Department of Finance is advising the government to require that banks make higher demands of paying back the principal) and why should I pay off the mortgage in full if the property prices always go up? At least that's the reasoning.

I have nothing against paying off your loan, but seeing it as your one and only retirement investment is something I have serious problems with. You should live where you are most comfortable living, I don't want people speculating in their homes on a casual basis "knowing" it always pays off. If you're going to really invest in your home, renovate a floor and rent it out. That way, you're contributing to the economy, you're not just speculating you're value investing and you know what the revenue stream of your investment really is. I had the privilege of growing up in a wealthy household with 7 bedrooms and after me and my brother moved out my parents decided three rooms was enough and converted the house into three apartments, living in one and renting out the other two.

Many of the neighboring families however don't like the idea since it means work, but they also don't want to move into something that won't grow as much over time. They're staying put even after the kids have moved out in hopes of cashing in right before retirement.

Re: The Shock of Sweden's Housing Market Is Hitting the Country's Currency

#334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a strong housing market may be the result of lack of productive capital, but I think it has more to do with supply and demand. Most average people pay for a house using a mortgage payment, so when buying a house, they'll be looking for a house that has an affordable mortgage payment. Let's say Joe wants to spend / can afford a $1000/month mortgage payment. If interest rates are 5% and the maximum mortgage per…

> Either politicians are stupid, or more likely, they know that "homeowner policy" like this can make them and their other rich buddies even richer. It's not a malice vs idiocy situation, actually there is a third explaination : economy needs a growing money supply to work properly (and the money creation need to compensate the economic growth AND the reduction of money velocity[1]). But since the late seventies, mon…

How else can money be created except through credit?

Re: The Shock of Sweden's Housing Market Is Hitting the Country's Currency

#335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's say the house didn't go up in value.. where would that leave you? Would you be any more capable to sell? (Serious question, not a rhetorical or sarcastic one.. just seems to me you'd still be in a hole, just a different hole)

> Would you be any more capable to sell? Quite possibly, yes. Let's plug in some plausible numbers. Say someone buys a 3-bedroom house for $300k (they have kids). At the same time, 1-bedroom houses sell for $200k. Time passes, the kids grow up and move out. Say house prices didn't change at all. You sell for $300k, buy for $200k, pay some agent fees, have $85k or so left over. Now say prices went up and the 3-bedroom…

You'r missing 300k from your after tax sale proceeds. You could still afford the smaller house with 263k left over. You would make a 37k loss yes, but you could buy the new house. An important distinction in my opinion.

Re: The Shock of Sweden's Housing Market Is Hitting the Country's Currency

#336
post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Would you be any more capable to sell? Quite possibly, yes. Let's plug in some plausible numbers. Say someone buys a 3-bedroom house for $300k (they have kids). At the same time, 1-bedroom houses sell for $200k. Time passes, the kids grow up and move out. Say house prices didn't change at all. You sell for $300k, buy for $200k, pay some agent fees, have $85k or so left over. Now say prices went up and the 3-bedroom…

You'r missing 300k from your after tax sale proceeds. You could still afford the smaller house with 263k left over. You would make a 37k loss yes, but you could buy the new house. An important distinction in my opinion.

Yes, you're absolutely right, good catch!

Of course all that assumes that you're not leveraged at all (paid-off morgage). If you're leveraged, price increases are generally a win even in the face of capital gains taxes on the increase.

Re: The Shock of Sweden's Housing Market Is Hitting the Country's Currency

#337
post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not every reader of HN possesses "a tax guy".

An HN reader who doubled their money on a house in California can find a tax guy.

More importantly, a person who made money that will be subject to tax unless they find a person to explain to them how to avoid paying tax can DEFINITELY afford a tax person.

Re: The Shock of Sweden's Housing Market Is Hitting the Country's Currency

#338
post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 2017 - Buy new house for $1M (but smaller size) Assuming there's anything on the market for $1M. The problems start when there isn't.

But if you're downsizing then yes there is a cheaper house. That's how the housing market generally works ($ per square foot * # of square feet). > The problems start when there isn't. And the market always opens up when there isn't because it means the demand goes higher and thus creates new sellers. That also "rises the tide" and increase everyone in the area's house prices. So it nets it self out.

> But if you're downsizing then yes there is a cheaper house.

Sure. But it might be $1.6 million, not $1 million, in your example...

Re: The Shock of Sweden's Housing Market Is Hitting the Country's Currency

#339
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I upvoted. I guess it's the first few words that suggest a racist / popularist post, but it's ontopic IMHO. You point to an influx of people in the age range that usually rents an apartment. Such local equilibria are quite instable. It only takes a few hundred excess renters to destabilize a local (regulated) market for housing. That leads to crowding out where those that usually would rent, but can afford to buy wil…

Well, if you are increasing the population a lot, all of those people are going to need somewhere to live. It isn't really hard to figure that out but most people don't seem to make that connection. Don't understand how it could even be remotely racist or popular. The statistics of housing prices correlates very well with increases in immigration. Of course, correlation does not imply causation but in this case I'm p…

So, could you explain why the housing prices fell in the 90s when we took in more refugees than ever before? And why they rose considerably when immigration slowed down in the mid 2000s?

Because, for some reason you're convinced immigration is the main cause of rising housing prices and that the two clearly correlates, even though you can only back that up with stats that are about a decade old, any older than that and the correlation disappears. Maybe I'm missing something?

Re: The Shock of Sweden's Housing Market Is Hitting the Country's Currency

#340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Either politicians are stupid, or more likely, they know that "homeowner policy" like this can make them and their other rich buddies even richer. It's not a malice vs idiocy situation, actually there is a third explaination : economy needs a growing money supply to work properly (and the money creation need to compensate the economic growth AND the reduction of money velocity[1]). But since the late seventies, mon…

How else can money be created except through credit?

Direct reserve emission by the central bank. In practice, the central bank can just give some reserve to the governement account.
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