I've been using OpenBSD for several years (since 3.4...wow, that's almost seven years), as my primary OS. I had been running Debian for 2~3 years, and Red Hat (briefly, ick) before that. A lot has been covered already, but: 1. The BSDs feel significantly more cohesive to me. Other people have mentioned this, but it deserves greater emphasis. The config files, man pages, etc. are quite a bit more consistent, and my fi…
Ask HN: I'm a Linux guy. Tell me about all those BSDs
81–90 of 167 posts
Re: Ask HN: I'm a Linux guy. Tell me about all those BSDs
#82Earlier quoted context omitted.
A reasonable summary, but one that demonstrates some misunderstandings of the Linux world. To deal with the issues point by point: * FreeBSD has better performance than Linux? This is, as you almost concede, no longer true. * Lack of kernel modules an advantage? Hardly. Linux loadable kernel modules produce no extra performance overhead, but make life a lot simpler for everyone. The only extra 'bloat' is having ~100M…
>The GCC compiler and toolchain aren't optimal, and I fully expect a major Linux distribution to switch to Clang/LLVM in the not too distant future. Have you looked through the Linux kernel code? There is a lot of gcc specific stuff in there. I don't think the Clang change will be as fast as you think.
Re: Ask HN: I'm a Linux guy. Tell me about all those BSDs
#83Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yeah point #1 is odd. GNU/Linux doesn't let licenses get in the way of technical decisions. DTrace and ZFS aren't in Linux because Sun explicitly designed their licensed to be GPL-incompatible. Where that isn't the case nobody is seeking to replace code due to license reasons. E.g. you don't see Linux people trying to replace X11 or Sendmail because of their licenses. But the BSD systems are actively trying to phase…
I really don't want to instigate a flamewar, but think for a second about the dogmatic bias required to create a slogan such as "GPL-incompatible". This is a pot-kettle situation if there ever was one.
The effect of Sun licensing dtrace, ZFS and others as GPL-compatible would make Linux more competitive with Sun's Solaris. That's clearly undesirable. Sun faces a lot of competition from IBM and HP, both with offers to migrate to AIX/HP-UX and to Linux on x86 hardware. Enhancing Linux was a big no-no for them.
Re: Ask HN: I'm a Linux guy. Tell me about all those BSDs
#84I have been an OpenBSD and FreeBSD user, as well as minor contributor, since the mid-90s. All the answers here are good, and I would like to add: * FreeBSD is on the cutting edge of performance. Because it is a total OS (as opposed to just a kernel), performance improvements are made and integrated into the binary packages and ports build options of common packages. FreeBSD was one of the first operating systems to i…
Re: "15. FreeBSD hasn't had a default install, STABLE security advisory in ~10 years." You make several good points here, but I'm not sure what you mean by that one. Consider the most recent advisory, FreeBSD-SA-10:07.mbuf, listed here: http://www.freebsd.org/security/advisories.html default install: yep, kernel mbuf code STABLE: yep, FreeBSD 7.1 and later security advisory: yep, privilege escalation in the past 10 y…
That said, FreeBSD doesn't excuse sysadmins from not being vigilant with monitoring advisories and keeping their systems up to date. Nor does it prevent vulnerabilities being introduced through installed userland software or other applications.
One benefit would be that with patches and ports, you can patch any vulnerability in a service without being forced to upgrade to a new version that might have incompatibilities with your system or that might introduce performance degradation.
You see this all the time with PHP, sysadmins run binary upgrades on the packages because of a security vulnerability, only for the website to spit out a bunch of warnings about functions that have been deprecated in the new version.
Re: Ask HN: I'm a Linux guy. Tell me about all those BSDs
#85One nice thing about the BSDs is that their users don't get annoying things like this when they look for basic manual pages: The GNU folks, in general, abhor man pages, and create info documents instead. The maintainer of tar falls into this category. This man page is neither complete, nor current, and was included in the Debian Linux packaging of tar entirely to reduce the frequency with which the lack of a man page…
Curious... I always thought BSD was for people who hate GNU, Linux, the GPL... ;-)
The wise route out of this problem is to create an info2man utility that converts info pages into man pages. Can't be that hard, can it? And, once you learn your way around it, info is much nicer than man. It's sily to hang on to 60's tech when there is 70's tech available.
Re: Ask HN: I'm a Linux guy. Tell me about all those BSDs
#86I've used FreeBSD continuously (as a server, no GUI) since 1995, with some Linux use here and there, and I find myself leaning toward Linux lately, mainly because Ubuntu has done a lot of great work recently to support Amazon EC2. FreeBSD has fallen behind on Amazon EC2 support for some reason. I was initially attracted to FreeBSD because I had first learned Unix on a BSD system in the late 80s, and the more restrict…
Re: Ask HN: I'm a Linux guy. Tell me about all those BSDs
#87The BSDs always feel beautiful to me. (I'm a mixed GNU/Linux, FreeBSD, Mac OSX user. ) The kernel configuration feels more simple and the official documentation feels uniform, informative, and almost always sufficient. If more virtualized hosting providers offered BSDs (FreeBSD in particular) I would choose them over Ubuntu for servers.
In that case I might as well give a shout-out to my current VPS host, ARP Networks:
http://www.arpnetworks.com/vps
They virtualize using KVM rather than Xen, so you can run any variety of OpenBSD, FreeBSD, NetBSD, or Linux without worrying about Xen support in your guest OS. Their performance seems as good as any other VPS host I've used (Xen or otherwise), I think the price is pretty good, and I haven't had any downtime to speak of so far. So I recommend giving them a try if you're looking.
Re: Ask HN: I'm a Linux guy. Tell me about all those BSDs
#88One nice thing about the BSDs is that their users don't get annoying things like this when they look for basic manual pages: The GNU folks, in general, abhor man pages, and create info documents instead. The maintainer of tar falls into this category. This man page is neither complete, nor current, and was included in the Debian Linux packaging of tar entirely to reduce the frequency with which the lack of a man page…
Different systems simply have different conventions, and GNU picked GNU Info over man pages. That bastard GNU tar(1) man page was created because Debian has a policy that everything must have a manpage.
I like Unix, but the GNU Info format solved some real issues with man. It has built-in index and cross-reference metadata, scales to the size of entire books (the FreeBSD manual would be a single info page), and is much easier to write. I much prefer reading info pages to man pages for that reason.
A lot of people seem to dislike GNU info because they confuse the GNU TexInfo / info format with the info(1) program. I'm not a big fan of the default reader (I use the Emacs one instead). But the TexInfo format can be exported to multiple formats and read by multiple programs. Here's the exported GNU Tar documentation for instance: http://www.gnu.org/software/tar/manual/index.html
Re: Ask HN: I'm a Linux guy. Tell me about all those BSDs
#89One nice thing about the BSDs is that their users don't get annoying things like this when they look for basic manual pages: The GNU folks, in general, abhor man pages, and create info documents instead. The maintainer of tar falls into this category. This man page is neither complete, nor current, and was included in the Debian Linux packaging of tar entirely to reduce the frequency with which the lack of a man page…
> There is a fair amount of truth in the old joke that BSD is for people that love Unix, and Linux is for people that hate Microsoft Curious... I always thought BSD was for people who hate GNU, Linux, the GPL... ;-) The wise route out of this problem is to create an info2man utility that converts info pages into man pages. Can't be that hard, can it? And, once you learn your way around it, info is much nicer than man…
It's odd that Debian doesn't simply use it instead of creating their own bastardized manpages of GNU programs.
Re: Ask HN: I'm a Linux guy. Tell me about all those BSDs
#90I have been an OpenBSD and FreeBSD user, as well as minor contributor, since the mid-90s. All the answers here are good, and I would like to add: * FreeBSD is on the cutting edge of performance. Because it is a total OS (as opposed to just a kernel), performance improvements are made and integrated into the binary packages and ports build options of common packages. FreeBSD was one of the first operating systems to i…
A reasonable summary, but one that demonstrates some misunderstandings of the Linux world. To deal with the issues point by point: * FreeBSD has better performance than Linux? This is, as you almost concede, no longer true. * Lack of kernel modules an advantage? Hardly. Linux loadable kernel modules produce no extra performance overhead, but make life a lot simpler for everyone. The only extra 'bloat' is having ~100M…
* The Mono vs Micro kernel debate between Linux and BSD doesn't apply as much anymore since they both support both. With Linux is varies a lot between distro vendors. Vendor kernels also tend to lag behind the main branch (at least this is my experience, mainly with Debian and Fedora). I find that FreeBSD, as a distro, allows easier kernel optimization especially since the default kernel is tight. Again, this is something that on the Linux side of the argument is the responsibility of the vendors, who approach the issue by providing targeted server and desktop distributions (most do). You are right though that there is very little performance diff between Micro v Mono (see the classic debate from when Linux was announced: http://oreilly.com/catalog/opensources/book/appa.html). I have always preferred only having code on the server that is required by the system (code coverage), and the FreeBSD way of doing this is managed better than any of the Linux distros, IMO.
* As somebody mentioned below, the Linux kernel is very much tied to GCC and its toolchain. It is so tied to it that the Intel compiler uses the Linux kernel as a test for its GCC compatibility mode.
* A BSD port of SELinux is actually part of TrustedBSD, which has in-turn been ported to FreeBSD. There are a bunch of other things that TrustedBSD entails, I can't name them off the top of my head atm, but both SELinux and TrustedBSD line up with orange book
* You are correct that the stable/release cycle of Linux is more up to each distribution, but since there is a step between kernel and distro (which FreeBSD as a total operating system doesn't have) there is a lag there, and a risk of support ceasing (or patches/updates/support suddenly becoming a commercial service, as it did at Red Hat)
In the end it depends on how you define 'better'. It is tiresome to enter debates about benchmarks and features, it is what you are most comfortable with. If you want to hack at a UNIX operating system that is very neat and cool, FreeBSD is a very good choice. If you like knowing what every file and every command does on your system, and prefer a UNIX-like uniformity in how things are done, then FreeBSD is again a good choice.
I would thoroughly recommend all hackers try out FreeBSD and become familiar with it. It will alert you to why some things are done the way they are, and there is a very deep history in that operating system, so at times it feels like opening a time capsule.
Add to that, if you need an OS for commercial purposes, FreeBSD is free as in 'do whatever you want', which can also be an advantage.