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Hired – Technical Interview Score

refdash.com

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Re: Hired – Technical Interview Score

#111
post #87

Have we reached the tipping point yet? How much worse does the technical interview process need to get before the industry finally decides enough is enough? When this all began, it was with the justification that it's not about getting the right answer, it's about seeing how you think and approach a problem. Companies don't even pretend this is the case anymore. It's now just expected rote memorization of algorithm p…

I LOLed at your comment! I still remember a recent interview I had with a team at Amazon. That team had accomplished NOTHING (and I mean NOTHING OF SIGNIFICANCE) in past 3 years, went through re-orgs and new managers, high attrition, nothing to show for. Here I am with successful products, published code and a track record of delivering. I have the skills to help them out. What happens? I get rejected because I didn'…

Good thing you did not end up in a lame team like that, with unreasonable decision-making like you've seen.

Interviews are a mutual process, where the hiring team must do their best to persuade me to join. (The same way I do my best to persuade them to accept me.) Some of them utterly fail, even if they make an offer.

Re: Hired – Technical Interview Score

#112
post #57

Have we reached the tipping point yet? How much worse does the technical interview process need to get before the industry finally decides enough is enough? When this all began, it was with the justification that it's not about getting the right answer, it's about seeing how you think and approach a problem. Companies don't even pretend this is the case anymore. It's now just expected rote memorization of algorithm p…

Great question, when will we decide enough is enough? I actually don't have a problem with the data structures interview exam inherently, my problem is with how it's administered. It doesn't bother actuaries have to take exams to demonstrate an understanding of linear algebra, vector calculus, stats, numerical analysis, and so forth. Nor does it bother me that they have take these exams even if they took the material…

I'm a co-founder of Refdash. Thanks for the thoughtful comment. I largely agree with things that you said. I think that interviews need to become significantly less stressful and more objective.

One way in which we're approaching the stress of interviews is to strip away the bad outcomes and allow people to approach interviews as "there is nothing to lose". Another way is experimenting with different types of interviews such as group interviews or project based interviews. Sometimes the issue with those experiments though is that they're even harder to standardize.

I think that in addition to what you said, we need to get to a measurable level of improvement. We try to measure the repeatability of our sessions in two ways: 1) when the same session is evaluated by two different interviewers, the ratings across dimensions should be equivalent and 2) (this one is harder to experiment control) when the same person does two interviews, they should be evaluated equivalently on the intersection of sets of things that were evaluated. By optimizing for these two ways of repeatability, we are hopefully going to move toward much more objective driven evaluations that capture the engineer's understanding of different areas and not just the spur of the moment.

Re: Hired – Technical Interview Score

#113
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So why ask people to write "code". What are you testing?

Personally, I think that asking people to write code in interviews brings very _limited_ data. However, from my experience, it usually is also a very _strong_ signal. Narrow but strong. For example, if a candidate cannot implement a simple algorithm (like the factorial here), he very likely has poor skills. If he can implement it without too much trouble, that's a good sign, but he only proved that he probably has so…

I don't mean to be offensive but reading your statement alone shows me your bias. 1) You constantly referred to the developer as he. You may not realize it but the language you use is an indication of the prototypical picture of a developer you have in your head 2) You are making a strong assumption based on one point of data, your "experience". I am not trying to belittle it but here's a counter. Based on my experience, I have hired developers who did great at algorithmic interviews, design and coding. Guess what, they SUCKED as developers. They didn't understand architecture. They weren't willing to learn a new language or framework. They couldn't properly evaluate why a framework would perform poorly. They had terrible communication skills which matter because their team didn't understand them and they couldn't make a strong case for why their point was right.

Point is, although there might be place for algorithm coding in developer interviews, I am willing to wager a large chunk of my salary that performing well in algorithm interviews doesn't necessarily correlate strongly to performing well on the job.

Why? Performing well on the job needs to be properly defined in it's context first.

Re: Hired – Technical Interview Score

#114
post #104

How well can you decouple? That's all I need to know about you. If you can do this well, I (or you) can fix all your bugs quickly. I (or you) can fix (most of) your performance issues quickly. If you can decouple, you can isolate whatever other areas of ignorance you have with ease. How well can you decouple? Is it instinctual for you to riddle off code architectures and solutions that are decoupled? It takes time +…

What do you mean by decoupling?

Aka, separation of concerns. There's a lot of literature on this.

But the key point is that it's an objective measure. Given two equally functional solutions to the same problem, one will be objectively more, less, or equally coupled than the other. It's a demonstrable, measurable skill set; the relative coupling of two separate solutions is generally speaking not some subjective measure.

Re: Hired – Technical Interview Score

#115
post #87

Have we reached the tipping point yet? How much worse does the technical interview process need to get before the industry finally decides enough is enough? When this all began, it was with the justification that it's not about getting the right answer, it's about seeing how you think and approach a problem. Companies don't even pretend this is the case anymore. It's now just expected rote memorization of algorithm p…

I LOLed at your comment! I still remember a recent interview I had with a team at Amazon. That team had accomplished NOTHING (and I mean NOTHING OF SIGNIFICANCE) in past 3 years, went through re-orgs and new managers, high attrition, nothing to show for. Here I am with successful products, published code and a track record of delivering. I have the skills to help them out. What happens? I get rejected because I didn'…

This is a good comment. One thing I'd like to point out is that people often defend technical interview exams on the notion that if someone can't write a factorial function, that's a bad sign.

Well, sure, but my experience has been that the technical interview exam is far more elaborate than this. My questions were more along the lines of finding all permutations of a set (usually with some twist, like find all permutations that, when combined, match another member of the set). Or finding all matching sub trees in an binary tree, or something depending on merge sort or quick sort. That sort of thing. Nothing impossible, but considerably more involved than simple recursion. And the teams that interviewed me clearly did expect to see largely working code written on a whiteboard.

Overall, it's elaborate enough that people do need to study substantially for their interview exams, and good developers may simply decide they don't want to waste the time on a job that might not even come through anyway. I once learned to do intricate integration by parts in calculus, but I wouldn't be especially interested in training up to do it for a data science interview. If it comes up for reals, I'll deal with it.

This is something the industry has inflicted on itself, which is why I feel a lot of irritation when I hear the same companies talk about a severe shortage of talented software developers.

Re: Hired – Technical Interview Score

#116
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great question, when will we decide enough is enough? I actually don't have a problem with the data structures interview exam inherently, my problem is with how it's administered. It doesn't bother actuaries have to take exams to demonstrate an understanding of linear algebra, vector calculus, stats, numerical analysis, and so forth. Nor does it bother me that they have take these exams even if they took the material…

I'm a co-founder of Refdash. Thanks for the thoughtful comment. I largely agree with things that you said. I think that interviews need to become significantly less stressful and more objective. One way in which we're approaching the stress of interviews is to strip away the bad outcomes and allow people to approach interviews as "there is nothing to lose". Another way is experimenting with different types of intervi…

Thanks for your response.

Based on what I've seen from your site, this does look like an improvement.

An interviewee can prepare properly, and take the interview once prepared, rather than doing this at arbitrary times that may be very busy, simply because an interview came up.

Because the interview results can be used in multiple places, there's no need to do this repeatedly for companies that have confidence in the exam (I hope!).

There are reassurances that the interviews are conducted by experienced engineers. I'd be interested in hearing more about this.

There is actual feedback, which is critical. I interviewed at google, and my understanding is that there are actual, numerical scores in a database for my performance in the various interview exams, but I'm not allowed to know what they are. To me, that's a huge problem, and I'm glad to see from your example that you provide feedback.

Re: Hired – Technical Interview Score

#117

I am really curious to know why there are businesses such as hired.com build around "interview" tools that rate software engineers only ? What tools are available to evaluate other professions : 1) Doctors ? 2) Engineers from other disciplines such as Chemical engineers, mechanical, civil , electrical engineers ? 3) Lawyers ? 4) VPs / CEOs 5) Financial analysts ?

I moved from SE to UX because I needed a change from coding 8 hours a day. That's one of the field where I could easily transfer my skills.

The interview process usually requires a portfolio, 2 phone interviews and one onsite interview. I had to talk about previous projects and what was my problem solving process, followed by a case to solve. This was refreshing and way less stressful, a walk in the park compared to the white board interview.

I understand the challenges that hiring managers face, but who has time to spend a day at 5-10 companies to switch job... A lot of companies still offer only 10-15 days vacation a year...

Re: Hired – Technical Interview Score

#118
post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a co-founder of Refdash. Thanks for the thoughtful comment. I largely agree with things that you said. I think that interviews need to become significantly less stressful and more objective. One way in which we're approaching the stress of interviews is to strip away the bad outcomes and allow people to approach interviews as "there is nothing to lose". Another way is experimenting with different types of intervi…

Thanks for your response. Based on what I've seen from your site, this does look like an improvement. An interviewee can prepare properly, and take the interview once prepared, rather than doing this at arbitrary times that may be very busy, simply because an interview came up. Because the interview results can be used in multiple places, there's no need to do this repeatedly for companies that have confidence in the…

Yes, you get to fast-track through interviews at multiple companies.

As far as the experience of the interviewers goes, we're pretty careful about it in our on-boarding process. Even more than the experience we look for open-minded engineers who are willing to question their evaluation and constantly work on improving the overall process.

Re: feedback at Google. It's hard for companies to give you access to feedback because of potential legal repercussions and also because it is very hard for them to deal with back and forth that would inevitably occur.

That's another big point that we emphasized early on that seemed like a crazy proposition - fully transparent interview process. That is, anything that a company would see, you see beforehand.

Re: Hired – Technical Interview Score

#119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Memorization? It's a factorial function. You shouldn't need to study or memorize anything to implement a factorial function. If you can't come up with this algorithm off the top of your head, that is legit telling something about your problem-solving ability.

Not particularly factorial problem, but the general interview questions require some amount of prior knowledge about the techniques. Topics like math based or bit manipulation, permutations/combinations have questions which are often asked in Interviews and require some prior knowledge to be able to give optimized solutions.

Also if it's legitimately the first time you're solving something like "all permutations" you'll be slower than someone who has done it before, and that might hurt you too.

Re: Hired – Technical Interview Score

#120
post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for your response. Based on what I've seen from your site, this does look like an improvement. An interviewee can prepare properly, and take the interview once prepared, rather than doing this at arbitrary times that may be very busy, simply because an interview came up. Because the interview results can be used in multiple places, there's no need to do this repeatedly for companies that have confidence in the…

Yes, you get to fast-track through interviews at multiple companies. As far as the experience of the interviewers goes, we're pretty careful about it in our on-boarding process. Even more than the experience we look for open-minded engineers who are willing to question their evaluation and constantly work on improving the overall process. Re: feedback at Google. It's hard for companies to give you access to feedback…

It's hard for companies to give you access to feedback because of potential legal repercussions and also because it is very hard for them to deal with back and forth that would inevitably occur

Although I agree with this point, it only explains why a bad practice occurs, not why it should happen. If anything, it indicates why google might not be a good institution to be conducting exams. What you're saying here (accurately) is that because Google could be sued for how it evaluates and uses its exams, they just keep the results secret.

To drive the point home - there is currently a class action forming against google for age discrimination. However, the process is opaque enough that people probably don't really know if there has been any age discrimination. One possible data point that might be of interest would be to see the exam results, or other information about how the exams were graded (I believe there are even images of the code I wrote stored in this database for google's record keeping - but not mine. Again, I'm not allowed to see them). So, one way to discriminate and get away with it would be to simply deny anyone access to the data used to evaluate them. That way, how would they ever know?

I understand this is true of all interviews, not just tech. But tech really is unusual (perhaps unique) in that a huge part of our "interviews" truly are exams. They're not "tell me about your experience". They're "write code to find all sub matrices in an NxN matrix with a positive determinant", often at the whiteboard, in 45 minutes.

If that sounds extreme or excessively suspicious, I'd like to point out that we're talking about a company that was clearly, glaringly guilty of an industry wide collusion to suppress wages and maintain no-hire lists. I'm hoping you've read those articles and seen those emails. It's reasonable for people, at this point, to be looking for some kind of outside regulation and transparency.

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