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Tech Industry: “We desperately need more developers”

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Re: Tech Industry: “We desperately need more developers”

#41
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think so. How many people do you know who feel they are being treated well leave their companies?

Happened to me. See my above comment.

So one instance. Yes, it's not going to be 100% retention. Nothing ever will be, unless you decide to bring back slavery.

I asked how often does it happen. I can almost guarantee you that the retention rate of developers who feel they're being treated well is much, much higher than otherwise.

Re: Tech Industry: “We desperately need more developers”

#42
post #30

I saw a company asking for 10 years OpenStack development experience. The initial release of OpenStack was 7 years ago. Cant make this shit up.

I had a manager who had a job posting for a COBALT programmer. He couldn't find a single one

Did you mean COBOL or did he misspell it and that's why he couldn't find one?

Re: Tech Industry: “We desperately need more developers”

#43
post #6

Nobody in this Twitter thread seems to know or understand what a commons problem is. Training up new devs is good for the industry, sure. But your own company doesn't capture all of that value. If you are trying to solve this problem by yelling at companies to be more altruistic, then, as previously stated, you don't know or understand what a commons problem is.

> But your own company doesn't capture all of that value. If they paid their employees properly, with adequate salary bumps as their experience grew, then the company would capture all of that value, most of the time. People jumping every 2 years isn't exactly something most employees want to do, it's something companies force upon them.

No, the employers won't capture that value by following your recommendation.

What you are recommending is that employers pay for training, and then pay employees exactly the same that they would get for hiring someone with equivalent skills from the market. This leaves employers out by the cost of training from the cost of hiring from the market. So the business is strictly behind where it would have been.

But worse yet, a non-trivial fraction of the time when you train someone for a role that they aren't currently in, you find that by ability or inclination they are not actually suited for that role. Which means that you're now just out the cost of training and may well have also lost the employee. By contrast someone that you hire externally who is already in the role is more likely to be a fit. Furthermore businesses tend to run on lean margins. You're hiring because you need those skills now, not in a year. A lot can change in a year.

Now against this you have to balance the fact that hiring people is expensive, new hires take time to come up to speed, and not all new hires work out. Furthermore a loyal employee with institutional knowledge has value because of that. It isn't a one-sided deal. Companies do train people.

However it is more common for it to be someone that they know already. Such as an internal promotion, or someone who did an internship. Hiring strangers expecting to train them with no particular reason to believe that you will keep them is a losing proposition.

Businesses that consistently pay for losing propositions usually wind up going out of business.

Re: Tech Industry: “We desperately need more developers”

#44
If hiring were truely an issue for companies, then salaries would be going up or at the very least you'd see them make location decisions based on where the supply of labor is greater than the demand. You almost never see companies doing that. It's always, let's move the company to where-ever is most convenient for the founders or the VCs.

Re: Tech Industry: “We desperately need more developers”

#45
This mentality is also related to the insane idea that junior developers are just glomming onto companies to get the training and then leave, taking advantage of the hard work these companies put into them. This is not a strawman, this is a true fear that I've hear several executives utter out loud with no self awareness.

Treat the junior developers like anyone else - someone who wants the best for their career and knowledge base - and provide it for them. Incentivize them to stay. Train them properly and give them resources to succeed. Maintain an internal culture that properly cultivates their talents and gives them mentors to work with and aspire to. Compensate them when they've reached proper thresholds in their usefulness to the team, and provide honest and valuable feedback (positive and negative) as much as you can. Plus avoid the obvious pitfalls: don't abuse them or belittle them for basic questions or silly mistakes. Don't throw them into the deep end with little to no chance of success. Don't talk down to them or treat them as a substandard part of the team. Don't start firing the juniors the minute the workload starts winding down. These are all signs of disrespect for your own workforce and everyone can see obvious red flags, even juniors.

Given the griping about tech interviews these days, does anyone really think that people actually like job hopping? They do it either to avoid poisonous situations, or out of obvious and necessary self interest, one that can be provided by a company willing to treat their junior hires with respect. There's no reason hiring a junior cannot be a win-win situation for everyone involved.

Re: Tech Industry: “We desperately need more developers”

#46
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Happened to me. See my above comment.

So one instance. Yes, it's not going to be 100% retention. Nothing ever will be, unless you decide to bring back slavery. I asked how often does it happen. I can almost guarantee you that the retention rate of developers who feel they're being treated well is much, much higher than otherwise.

Let's rehash your argument here. You think that companies that need skilled devs should train up junior devs instead of looking for skilled devs on the job market. Your answer to the retention issue that creates is "treat employees better."

You don't understand why that's a bad deal for employers? You want them to take on all of the risk and get none of the reward.

Look, I like the current system where you have to build the skills yourself and find some way to get into the job market. I was able to navigate that system and build a career in it. I look at the current code-school infrastructure as basically "easy mode." That's what we need more of. Companies still snap up code school grads like nobody's business.

Asking companies to play the role of code schools is just way too much.

Re: Tech Industry: “We desperately need more developers”

#47

Alot of companies think they need senior devs, when in reality what they really need is more junior or mid-level devs. Most developers aren't architecting whole new apps, or building out massive feature requests. Most of the time, it's fixing bugs, maintenance, adjustments to existing features, and other work that mainly requires navigating existing code and infrastructure, with the occasional new feature here and th…

You underestimate the cost of communication overhead and rework. As a flat team scales, the cost of communication scales with the number of people squared. If you solve this with process, everyone's productivity is dropped.

Data that you can find in Software Estimation: Demystifying The Black Art quantifies this. The overall productivity of a team increases until it has 5-8 people. Then it goes down. A team of 12 actually accomplishes LESS per month than it would if you fired half the people. However once you get to 20-25 people, productivity is back. And then increases fairly close to linearly.

Going from 5-8 people all the way to 20+ with no increase in throughput is really, really painful. And those aren't cheap people. This provides companies with a huge incentive to figure out how to get a small team to be as productive as possible. And you don't get the most out of a small team by filling it up with junior to mid-level devs.

Re: Tech Industry: “We desperately need more developers”

#48

Tweets are news now? Really. Anyway. I run a largeish software team and we have a mix of very experienced devs along with some newer devs who definitely have holes in their skills. We run training in certain areas with the goal of upskilling the team. Especially for security and secure coding practices which aren't taught in universities. There's also a lot of training around good engineering practices and the like.…

Do you have any links to good resources on "secure coding practices" or more generally "good engineering practices"?

I feel like there are lots of resources about specific programming skills (language and library details) but it is difficult to find good resources about more higher level concerns; security, maintenance, tooling, operations, availability, authentication/authorization, scaling, automation.

Google's Site Reliability Engineering is one example of a good resource in this area.

Re: Tech Industry: “We desperately need more developers”

#49
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But your own company doesn't capture all of that value. If they paid their employees properly, with adequate salary bumps as their experience grew, then the company would capture all of that value, most of the time. People jumping every 2 years isn't exactly something most employees want to do, it's something companies force upon them.

No, the employers won't capture that value by following your recommendation. What you are recommending is that employers pay for training, and then pay employees exactly the same that they would get for hiring someone with equivalent skills from the market. This leaves employers out by the cost of training from the cost of hiring from the market. So the business is strictly behind where it would have been. But worse…

> What you are recommending is that employers pay for training, and then pay employees exactly the same that they would get for hiring someone with equivalent skills from the market. This leaves employers out by the cost of training from the cost of hiring from the market. So the business is strictly behind where it would have been.

This is in the context of businesses complaining about a shortage of developers. If every mid or senior level position was getting filled without much grief or effort, then there wouldn't be any issue. But in a situation where the business can't seem to find anyone that fits the bill, the obvious solution is to look at the talent they CAN train, instead of hoping the exact right candidate walks through the door.

Furthermore, in any reasonable organization where things like positive/negative code review, respectful seniors, mentorship, and a general respect of all developers are part of the company culture, the cost of training a junior developer to be useful to the project is largely absorbed. Of course, a company where everyone is isolated and heads-down will consider training to be a huge burden, because it's completely orthogonal to their workflow.

> Businesses that consistently pay for losing propositions usually wind up going out of business.

Businesses that focus on the short term "we need this now, get the butt in the seat" aren't thinking about the workforce as people, which is just as insidious.

Re: Tech Industry: “We desperately need more developers”

#50
post #6

Nobody in this Twitter thread seems to know or understand what a commons problem is. Training up new devs is good for the industry, sure. But your own company doesn't capture all of that value. If you are trying to solve this problem by yelling at companies to be more altruistic, then, as previously stated, you don't know or understand what a commons problem is.

> your own company doesn't capture all of that value.

This is the general thought of the industry. But I wonder if is this true from a long term value perspective?

For example - Glassdoor says, for San Franciso, a junior iOS developer is paid 100k USD [1] while senior iOS developer is paid 156k USD [2]

If there is no hike, the senior developer costs 56k USD more each year. So, assuming an average turnover of 2 years that is 112k USD.

So are we to say that the cost of training and capturing of 2 years of that value is not equal to at least 112k USD?

[1] https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/san-francisco-jr-ios-deve...

[2] https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/san-francisco-senior-ios-...

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