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There are over a billion outdated Android devices in use

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Re: There are over a billion outdated Android devices in use

#451

Post by vetinari »

scarface74 wrote: post #449
vetinari wrote: post #445

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are many reasons. First, Google didn't design anything. They were looking for partners for their OS and these partners used their existing design. The first HTCs were almost identical between their Android and Windows Mobile versions. Second, there are reasons why the embedded systems do not have them. Apart from increased complexity (bad for the designer and manufacturer), increased energy consumption (bad for…

Google didn't design the operating system? Microsoft didn't design computers either but they have been steering PC manufacturers for over 20 years since Windows 95 and the plug and play initiatives.

Google didn't design the hardware - when we are talking about firmware, booting, pci enum, etc, we are obviously talking about hardware. Their partners did and they reused their existing design.

Microsoft basically strongarmed the PC vendors - they either did what Microsoft said, or didn't ship Windows with their wares. Windows, which was the only game in the town, if you wanted to sell PCs.

Google didn't have such luxury when they started with Android. They needed to be everyone possible to be with them onboard and the "lets throw out everything you have and design new hardware from scratch" doesn't make for a good start.

In mobile, Microsoft also reused Qualcomm's reference design. But contrary to Google, they used ONLY Qualcomm's design, that's why their system looks united. All the WP phones are basically the same board.

Re: There are over a billion outdated Android devices in use

#452

Post by scarface74 »

vetinari wrote: post #451
scarface74 wrote: post #449

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google didn't design the operating system? Microsoft didn't design computers either but they have been steering PC manufacturers for over 20 years since Windows 95 and the plug and play initiatives.

Google didn't design the hardware - when we are talking about firmware, booting, pci enum, etc, we are obviously talking about hardware. Their partners did and they reused their existing design. Microsoft basically strongarmed the PC vendors - they either did what Microsoft said, or didn't ship Windows with their wares. Windows, which was the only game in the town, if you wanted to sell PCs. Google didn't have such l…

So now almost 10 years later, what "other game is in town" that stops Google from taking more control over the hardware except either incompetence or neglect? You won't sell many Android devices that don't run Google Services in the West.

Re: There are over a billion outdated Android devices in use

#453

Post by kelnos »

asveikau wrote: post #156
kelnos wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed in principle, but a decent amount of the new security features present in more recent Android phones are due to new kernel features. It's just a sign of the relative immaturity of the platform that this is the case.

Can you provide some detailed examples of that being the case? Genuinely curious to know. Usually I hear that sort of thing and think somebody isn't being creative enough with fallback behaviors for when the feature isn't there, but I guess it would depend heavily on what the feature is.

I guess I probably misspoke. I was thinking about https://android-developers.googleblog.com/2017/08/hardening-... ... but those certainly don't require userspace changes (probably). And even the case where you'd want the new kernel features (but can't upgrade due to driver ABI incompatibilities), they've backported to several old kernels that are in wide use in Android... though I note that my 2-year-old phone is on an older kernel than most of those features were backported to.

Re: There are over a billion outdated Android devices in use

#454

Post by jlarocco »

willtim wrote: post #243
jlarocco wrote: post #55

Perhaps the real problem is sloppy development practices that make staying up to date so important. Unfortunately, nothing is going to change because the companies making these phones (and other software based products) see it as a way to drive sales.

It's even more fundamental than that. The world is built on C and C++, both of which were designed a long time ago and without safety and security in mind.

That's true, but it is actually possible to write C and C++ safely, it's just really difficult and really expensive and requires a lot of discipline, so it's not very fun.

So crappy code is cheaper to develop in the first place, and then companies can sell more down the line when new versions have bug fixes and security improvements. There's really no incentive to change anything.

Re: There are over a billion outdated Android devices in use

#455

Post by _ea1k »

acdha wrote: post #377
_ea1k wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Security isn't as big of an issue with many of these devices as you might think. Unless it is years out of date, Play Services still gets updates, the system web view still gets updated, Chrome still gets updates, and in many cases the vendor will still roll out an emergency patch if there is something serious.

That's a huge guessing game, though - remember StageFright? You could have a phone with an up to date Chrome, up to date Play Services, and still be trivially exploited simply by viewing a standard video file. (Not to mention wondering which of your apps uses an out of date embedded web view) I would submit that the number of people qualified to safely make (and update) that risk assessment is extremely small, and al…

StageFright was patched on a LOT of devices that "no longer received updates". The concern with embedded web views is overrated, as Android actually updates those via Play Services now.

For all of the talk of how awful this is, actual exploits are almost unheard of.

Re: There are over a billion outdated Android devices in use

#456

Post by fulafel »

kuschku wrote: post #428
fulafel wrote: post #415

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Android device vendors are Linux distribution vendors, and could support their releases for 5-10 years for a given device generation, like many other Linux distribution vendors are doing. (Or outsource it) Yes of course it's not free and you can save money by leaving users stranded. But it's myopic to claim it's the fault of Linux.

That’s not really possible. Let’s imagine you try to build a phone. You buy an SoC, and you get a single kernel build. If you’re lucky, you get a few binary kernel modules. These will never be updated. You will always be stuck on that kernel version. No manufacturer of ARM SoCs for phones currently provides ever updates for these. Linux LTS Kernels get 2 years of support. Now, tell me, how do you support a kernel tha…

You can support that kernel version, like distributions do now with back port etc work, or you can prefer SoC vendors that promise updated driver support. If the latter was happening, the problem would be fixed by now. So essentially phone vendors have been voting with their dollars for lack of driver updates.

But even for the self caused major version jam, the "get 2 years of support from upstream" is a heavy understatement and even after the n years of community LTS support ends, it's just the baseline you get for granted and you can diy more.

Re: There are over a billion outdated Android devices in use

#457

Post by goalieca »

5ilv3r wrote: post #124
goalieca wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you concerned at all with security of the device? Just asking because I know lots of people who stick with older droids and none seem to care.

Old device user here. The frequency of exploits is going up, so older devices with few features and small attack surface are safer than new devices with the bells and whistles and a bigger attack surface. Basically, fuck you to the assholes pushing updates. They are doing it wrong and I reject them. I will accept no update with antifeatures, no matter how much they say it is good for me.

The old device runs a complete browser with network access and daemons etc. It seems like all of the bells and whistles were already around for quite some time.

Re: There are over a billion outdated Android devices in use

#458

Post by johnchristopher »

Nition wrote: post #247
johnchristopher wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would making and receiving calls and texts and checking email not work on current devices in a couple of years ?

No, the OP means any new phone will just be obsolete again in a couple of years, so why bother if their current obsolete phone is good enough anyway.

Ah, I see :-D. Thank you for the clarification.

Re: There are over a billion outdated Android devices in use

#459

Post by herbst »

scarface74 wrote: post #78
herbst wrote: post #76

I have a obscure low level Oppo device from Asia. Its hardly up to date, but it is still more than i need plus provides a 2 day battery life even after a year of using. I think we just reached the point where phones grow in specs we dont actually need. The thing is i use my phone mostly like a public wifi. Trust nothing.

What about security updates?

Oppo no have. But no seriously there still are some but AFAIK they stop next year.
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