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Ask HN: I'm a Linux guy. Tell me about all those BSDs

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31–40 of 167 posts

Re: Ask HN: I'm a Linux guy. Tell me about all those BSDs

#31

(Speaking as a FreeBSDer here -- I'll let NetBSD and OpenBSD folks cover those, since I don't follow them closely enough to offer accurate comments.) 1. We don't let licenses get in the way of making good technical decisions. This means that, for example, we had no problem with importing DTrace and ZFS. 2. We have more of an emphasis on doing things right. This often means that it takes longer before we acquire new f…

I've used FreeBSD for servers and my personal workstation for quite a few years. I love FreeBSD, and the thought of having to support a Linux variant is not a pleasant one. Not that I have a bone to pick with Linux, since I thought it was an excellent OS for the 10 or so years I used it before trying FreeBSD. But once I tried, and became accustomed to, FreeBSD, there was simply no turning back.

However, I take issue with your #1 bullet point above. If the FreeBSD camp truly was about the technical stuff, we wouldn't be stuck with a crusty, substandard version GCC in the base system.

For those not in the loop, the last GCC version with a GPLv2 license was 4.2.1 (from 20070719 according to "gcc -v" on my 8.1 machine). Due to not liking the GPLv3, the FreeBSD developers have stuck w/ this old GCC version, denying users the current set of optimizations and architecture support.

Sure, we can use GCC from ports, but that's not officially supported for the base system or the ports tree. True, they're working on getting the clang LLVM front-end to be the official base system compiler, it'll be 5 to 10 years before it's as stable and usable as gcc is today.

But that is about my only gripe with FreeBSD, and as far as gripes go, it's a relatively minor one.

Re: Ask HN: I'm a Linux guy. Tell me about all those BSDs

#32
post #28
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can run FreeBSD on Linode as of FreeBSD 8.*. It can run in domU now.

is this true? hot damn, I am behind the times. do you know if it's the paravirtualized kernel? last I checked it wasn't particularly stable... but damn. I don't see it in their 'distro manager' thing

I emailed them about it after 8 was released-they have a 'non supported install method' for OpenBSD that a forum member wrote. They told me it SHOULD work for FreeBSD, but they're currently not devoting any resources to figuring out how to make it go

Re: Ask HN: I'm a Linux guy. Tell me about all those BSDs

#33
post #28
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can run FreeBSD on Linode as of FreeBSD 8.*. It can run in domU now.

is this true? hot damn, I am behind the times. do you know if it's the paravirtualized kernel? last I checked it wasn't particularly stable... but damn. I don't see it in their 'distro manager' thing

They don't officially support it. But they just run a normal Xen setup. Setting up any Xen OS that supports running in domU is relatively easy. There's a few people that have already done it for FreeBSD and NetBSD.

You can try it out locally by setting up Linux and running FreeBSD in domU. Then just transfer that image to Linode.

Re: Ask HN: I'm a Linux guy. Tell me about all those BSDs

#34
post #29
post #21

Die hard OpenBSD fan. ( http://www.flickr.com/photos/kc-bike/2894306940/ ) The primary functional differences are a more mature code base (I didn't say more technically advanced or superior) and in general a unified system. What most people have come to know as "Linux" or "GNU/Linux" is a kernel mashed together with the GNU userland. And most distributions then further pile things onto it, kind of assuming they know…

If you want a desktop-oriented BSD "to try" I recommend PC-BSD. It's a very painless install and the whole distribution is geared towards a fairly non-technical user.

This guy sounds plenty technical, though. Also, PC-BSD starts losing the point of the unified system and kernel. It's essentially a FreeBSD fork with more GNU stuff.

Re: Ask HN: I'm a Linux guy. Tell me about all those BSDs

#35
post #3

I've used FreeBSD continuously (as a server, no GUI) since 1995, with some Linux use here and there, and I find myself leaning toward Linux lately, mainly because Ubuntu has done a lot of great work recently to support Amazon EC2. FreeBSD has fallen behind on Amazon EC2 support for some reason. I was initially attracted to FreeBSD because I had first learned Unix on a BSD system in the late 80s, and the more restrict…

I think FreeBSD boxes are generally used as perimeter boxes by most sys admins because of their reliability, therefore compatibility with virtualized environments is not a priority.

Re: Ask HN: I'm a Linux guy. Tell me about all those BSDs

#36
I've been using OpenBSD for several years (since 3.4...wow, that's almost seven years), as my primary OS. I had been running Debian for 2~3 years, and Red Hat (briefly, ick) before that. A lot has been covered already, but:

1. The BSDs feel significantly more cohesive to me. Other people have mentioned this, but it deserves greater emphasis. The config files, man pages, etc. are quite a bit more consistent, and my first guess about where something is located is nearly always right. Red Hat, in particular, seemed to cavalierly scatter things in /usr/bin, /usr/local/bin, /usr/local/sbin, etc. (Around 7.0, IIRC.) The man pages & other docs are consistently excellent, for everything from malloc to spamd, it's a cleanly and consistently designed system for learning Unix / system administration.

2. OpenBSD has a focus on security. While this isn't my top priority, personally, I really like its secondary effects - it tends towards minimalism, so there are less dusty corners to harbor exploitable bugs, and they pass security patches upstream. OpenBSD's malloc (http://www.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/man.cgi?query=malloc) can also be configured for very aggressive scrutiny. Not quite the same as running everything under valgrind, but it has also much less overhead since it's better integrated. If you're working in C, it's a great platform.

3. I can install and configure an OpenBSD system in under ten minutes, easy. Its installer is spartan and based on text prompts. Once you know what to expect, it's a snap. Also, they put all recognized drivers in the kernel (ostensibly since debugging weird custom-kernel issues would be tough with a smaller community) - if the dmesg doesn't say "... - not recognized" at boot, you're usually set. No rebuilding kernels or modules just to get things working. I haven't dealt with much really weird hardware, but any random crappy old x86/amd stuff has worked fine. (Cheap old Thinkpads run BSD brilliantly, by the way. I'm typing this on a T41.)

4. The BSDs have less GNU stuff in the userland. This is probably a matter of taste, but a lot of the GNU stuff seems really bloated by comparison - gmake vs. BSD make, gawk vs. awk, etc. (That said, I'm also an Emacs user. :) ) The BSDs also seem less political. It isn't Linux or GNU/Linux, it's just BSD.

5. I really like source / ports-tree-based packaging. You can still use binary packages (especially if you're installing KDE, doing that from source is just silly), but ports+flavors works quite well. Some Linux distros (Arch and Gentoo) have similar packaging systems, now. Of course, some programs are hard to bootstrap - GHC, in particular, has lagged behind.

I've only used FreeBSD a bit here and there, but it also seems like an extremely solid OS, and most of the same advantages apply. It doesn't have as much focus on security, but its community is much larger, and it's probably more newbie-friendly.

Re: Ask HN: I'm a Linux guy. Tell me about all those BSDs

#37
post #14

I used FreeBSD and OpenBSD for a while, and what drove me back to GNU/Linux was package management. OpenBSD was OK at it even if it had a limited selection, but I never had much luck with FreeBSD ports. Having a nice, stable base system wasn't very useful when ports were always being updated to the latest version; if I wanted a security fix, I had to take all the feature changes and new bugs, too. I tried a bunch of…

First time hear DNU/kFreeBSD, I have been used Debian for some years, and will try kFreeBSD later

Re: Ask HN: I'm a Linux guy. Tell me about all those BSDs

#38

(Speaking as a FreeBSDer here -- I'll let NetBSD and OpenBSD folks cover those, since I don't follow them closely enough to offer accurate comments.) 1. We don't let licenses get in the way of making good technical decisions. This means that, for example, we had no problem with importing DTrace and ZFS. 2. We have more of an emphasis on doing things right. This often means that it takes longer before we acquire new f…

I've used FreeBSD for servers and my personal workstation for quite a few years. I love FreeBSD, and the thought of having to support a Linux variant is not a pleasant one. Not that I have a bone to pick with Linux, since I thought it was an excellent OS for the 10 or so years I used it before trying FreeBSD. But once I tried, and became accustomed to, FreeBSD, there was simply no turning back. However, I take issue…

Yeah point #1 is odd. GNU/Linux doesn't let licenses get in the way of technical decisions. DTrace and ZFS aren't in Linux because Sun explicitly designed their licensed to be GPL-incompatible.

Where that isn't the case nobody is seeking to replace code due to license reasons. E.g. you don't see Linux people trying to replace X11 or Sendmail because of their licenses. But the BSD systems are actively trying to phase out GPL licensed code due to not liking the license.

Re: Ask HN: I'm a Linux guy. Tell me about all those BSDs

#39
I've been using FreeBSD since the 8.1 release a few weeks back and as my first *BSD experience it is fantastic.

The only thing which will keep me from committing to it is the absence of a stable and/or official version of Google Chrome (the only freebsd versions of Chromium I've found have been very much alpha software).

I (like a lot of people I suppose) spend too much time in my browser to have this be a negotiable point.

I have been very much impressed by the cohesiveness of the platform (akin to what Ubuntu has achieved on the linux side) and the documentation is fantastic so if you're a FF user anyway, go for it.

Re: Ask HN: I'm a Linux guy. Tell me about all those BSDs

#40

(Speaking as a FreeBSDer here -- I'll let NetBSD and OpenBSD folks cover those, since I don't follow them closely enough to offer accurate comments.) 1. We don't let licenses get in the way of making good technical decisions. This means that, for example, we had no problem with importing DTrace and ZFS. 2. We have more of an emphasis on doing things right. This often means that it takes longer before we acquire new f…

I've used FreeBSD for servers and my personal workstation for quite a few years. I love FreeBSD, and the thought of having to support a Linux variant is not a pleasant one. Not that I have a bone to pick with Linux, since I thought it was an excellent OS for the 10 or so years I used it before trying FreeBSD. But once I tried, and became accustomed to, FreeBSD, there was simply no turning back. However, I take issue…

The GCC situation is a bit more complicated than that. Importing new versions of GCC is a major PITA due to changes needed in FreeBSD not being accepted into the main GCC tree. We've been saying "gee, it would be great if we could get rid of GCC" since long before GPLv3 came out.

GPLv3 caused Apple to support LLVM development, which caused LLVM to be production-ready; and that combined with the general crappiness of gcc is causing FreeBSD to switch to LLVM. The licensing issue is a slight irritant, and without it we might have ended at 4.3 or 4.4 instead of 4.2.1; but it's certainly not the biggest issue.

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