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There are over a billion outdated Android devices in use

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Re: There are over a billion outdated Android devices in use

#151

Post by crankylinuxuser »

kuschku wrote: post #110
colejohnson66 wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also, be aware that ARM has nothing to enumerate devices, ... Isn’t that the purpose of a device tree?

Basically yes, but that's often not good enough either. Lots of third party code OEMs end up with in their kernels, unmaintainable, and often incompatible with anything.

Now waitasec...

I own Crappy unupdated Android one of. And the drivers use the Linux kernel. Last I checked, they need to release source for their drivers.

So where is it? And why can't we upstream those patches and "fix" android?

Re: There are over a billion outdated Android devices in use

#152

Post by alphonsegaston »

tpallarino wrote: post #104
userbinator wrote: post #48

With current and older devices working perfectly well, and new devices being even less serviceable and more user-hostile with greater efforts towards planned obolescence, is it any wonder that people just aren't "upgrading" any more? I don't consider this a problem, but a sign of an ecosystem that is gaining stability. In fact I'd say it's even better, from an e-waste perspective, that the amount of churn has decreas…

As someone who goes as long as possible without performing updates, this is exactly the reason why. Example: Last time I updated my iPhone, the music app got an update and now they are trying to shove iCloud down my throat. Not to mention needless UI changes when I was more than satisfied with how it was before.

I understand this entirely, but there are some pretty bad iOS vulnerabilities out in the wild now (e.g. KRACK wpa2). It’s pretty dangerous to avoid updates nowadays.

I think what needs to happen across the industry is a complete decoupling of “feature” from security patching. Too many people are exposed because of exactly the kind of unwanted UI upgrades you describe.

Re: There are over a billion outdated Android devices in use

#153

Post by matt_wulfeck »

kuschku wrote: post #108
mjevans wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's only a problem because they're keeping driver support closed. If they contributed a driver for their hardware upstream it would be maintained (by others) as the internal interfaces and standards change. Whenever a security issue or design change happened, their driver would also get updated and fixed with the rest of the kernel. What the hardware manufacturers SHOULD do is create hardware with a well defined c…

That's often not that simple. For example, SAMSUNG might build your device, and get all of their own code openly. But now for the US model, due to CDMA, they need to use a Qualcomm processor. That needs a blob, and Qualcomm won't release that under an open license, nor update it. So the OEM can either just not have CDMA support, or accept foreign blobs. It works like this all way down the stack, down to even camera c…

Apple has the same issues, yet they keep their devices updated and secure for 5+ years.

Re: There are over a billion outdated Android devices in use

#154

Post by Spivak »

ekianjo wrote: post #125
kuschku wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, that's not a real issue, is it? It's purely a decision from the manufacturers to be assholes to their customers. There is no technical need that'd prevent them from creating updates. Especially Samsung (which also produces the SoC in-house for all relevant markets).

They have no incentives to do so. I would like Samsung to make it into a business. Have folks pay 5 dollars per year if they want to get ongoing security updates for older devices. I would pay in an instant.

For reference Red Hat charges around $425/yr for extended support. Obviously the situation is different because Red Hat has a lot more software to support but they also have a fewer products and more customers that care enough to buy it. But I think the upshot is that a $5/yr extended support contract is a bit of a pipedream.

Just as an order of magnitude estimate we're assuming that it's about 100 times more effort to continue maintenance of a general purpose Linux based OS than a general purpose Linux based OS on specific set of hardware. And that's before you realize that the market for this support contract is just frugal IT people with specifc Android phones that haven't worn out from use. So not much luck with a 'we'll make it up in volume' analysis.

Re: There are over a billion outdated Android devices in use

#155

Post by kbwt »

macspoofing wrote: post #126
ryuuchin wrote: post #121

The obvious thing to say is to just get a Nexus/Pixel device and enjoy your updates but I'm sure this isn't an option for some people. I think the best thing that you can do to ensure you still get security updates is either make sure you get a device with an unlocked bootloader or hope there's a root exploit available so you can put something like LinageOS[1] on it. I picked up an Essential Phone (on the cheap) for…

>The obvious thing to say is to just get a Nexus/Pixel device and enjoy your updates ... for 2 years.

... if you buy it on release day.

Re: There are over a billion outdated Android devices in use

#156

Post by asveikau »

kelnos wrote: post #148
asveikau wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does the kernel and driver ABI matter for upgrading userland? On desktop Linux I can by and large use a new kernel and chroot into an old install, or vice versa, and things still work. It would seem that Android userland is unnecessarily coupled to a specific kernel version. It should be able to upgrade independently.

Agreed in principle, but a decent amount of the new security features present in more recent Android phones are due to new kernel features. It's just a sign of the relative immaturity of the platform that this is the case.

Can you provide some detailed examples of that being the case? Genuinely curious to know.

Usually I hear that sort of thing and think somebody isn't being creative enough with fallback behaviors for when the feature isn't there, but I guess it would depend heavily on what the feature is.

Re: There are over a billion outdated Android devices in use

#157

Post by Spivak »

The_DaveG wrote: post #142
LandoCalrissian wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right? It may still largely be functional, but I would never trust that device in the open, it's just ripe for a bevy of attacks. I really wish Google would expand their service lifetime on their own devices, because I feel 2 years is really too short.

Two years is completely too short, even three years if you purchase mid-cycle is not enough. I own Nexus 5X's on Project Fi, one bootlooped and was replaced, the other still going strong after ~20months. I also have a Pixel XL acquired like 7 months ago, both of those should outlive the updates and giving Google the money directly, they should take care of their customers. Far from an Apple fan boy, the 2016 MBP and…

Two years is too short but once you get on the extended warranty loop you can basically get another 2/4 years of new phones on the cheap.

Re: There are over a billion outdated Android devices in use

#158

Post by pcwalton »

kuschku wrote: post #110
colejohnson66 wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also, be aware that ARM has nothing to enumerate devices, ... Isn’t that the purpose of a device tree?

Basically yes, but that's often not good enough either. Lots of third party code OEMs end up with in their kernels, unmaintainable, and often incompatible with anything.

Well, it's not true that "ARM has no method to enumerate devices". It does have that; it's just that hardware manufacturers are bad at using it properly. (That's not to say it's not a huge problem; it's just that it's an economic/business/social one, not a technical one.)

Re: There are over a billion outdated Android devices in use

#159

Post by maksimum »

crx087 wrote: post #144
Nuance wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How are you so certain obsolescence is planned?

I have seen a prepaid device literally self-destruct from a combination of market segmenting and artificial firmware restrictions. Edit: There was no CM support, no way to delete bloatware, forcibly disabled SD storage support, and non-optional updates that eventually rendered the device unusable. The two end-user choices were to either remain offline or get stuck in "not enough free space" loops.

Sounds like my Republic Wireless Moto X running Android 2.3 from 2013. It still works, but usability has degraded significantly.

Re: There are over a billion outdated Android devices in use

#160

Post by pcwalton »

matt_wulfeck wrote: post #153
kuschku wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's often not that simple. For example, SAMSUNG might build your device, and get all of their own code openly. But now for the US model, due to CDMA, they need to use a Qualcomm processor. That needs a blob, and Qualcomm won't release that under an open license, nor update it. So the OEM can either just not have CDMA support, or accept foreign blobs. It works like this all way down the stack, down to even camera c…

Apple has the same issues, yet they keep their devices updated and secure for 5+ years.

Well, Apple completely controls the XNU kernel and its I/O Kit framework. By contrast, Google--and especially phone manufacturers--don't control development of the Linux kernel.
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