Earlier quoted context omitted.
> It's interesting because it will allow debate, something that has been in very short supply during this whole process. Are you referring to Parliamentary debate about whether some deal can be cut with the EU? I recall a lot of public debate before the vote itself, and a lot since, if that's what you're referring to.
The debates before the referendum were imprecise and overloaded (politically) with other items (i.e. whether David Cameron can convince the people and lead the party) a debate on a Brexit law is on a precise working law.
UK parliament to get binding vote on final Brexit deal
91–100 of 109 posts
Re: UK parliament to get binding vote on final Brexit deal
#92Earlier quoted context omitted.
I am an EU citizen living in the UK for 11 years (my whole adult life) so this is from my perspective. The campaign and reasons given for leaving were extremely xenophobic. There was a lot of talk of EU citizens "clogging up" the healthcare system and emigrating to the UK to claim benefits instead of working. Almost none of this was based on fact but it almost certainly swung the vote. Other reasons such as sovereign…
Both campaigns were guilty of misinformation but the most blatant outrage was the UK government itself spending £9 ($12) million of the British people's money producing and delivering one-sided pro-EU propaganda to every address in the UK. Edit: For people downvoting the above factual post: Government's £9m EU 'propaganda' leaflet has left public LESS well informed, study shows: http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/g…
Two polls at different points in time, without any information about methods and sampling error, gave slightly differing results (23% vs. 21%). This leaflet campaign took place between them. This isn't a very good argument: Weak correlation in noisy data does not mean causation.
(Not saying the government was right to do this this way. But calling the thing misinformation that confused voters based on this comparison of polls is a bit exaggerated.)
Re: UK parliament to get binding vote on final Brexit deal
#93Earlier quoted context omitted.
That's massive by the standards of modern democracy. Can you name any issue which more people have voted on? Far less people than that vote in most governments.
Yes I can. Here in Australia we've just held a non-compulsory national poll (technically a survey not a vote, although it's been debated in public as though it were a plebiscite) on making the legislative changes to permit same-sex marriage. The turnout is 78.5% of eligible voters, thereby exceeding the Brexit voter participation rate. NB: The comparison may be confounded by local behavioural standards. Participation…
Re: UK parliament to get binding vote on final Brexit deal
#94Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don't think you could be more intellectually dishonest if you tried > Young people were excluded from the referendum vote. same franchise as a general election, and the past AV referendum > Certain demographics living outside of the UK - who are normally allowed to vote in elections - were excluded from the referendum vote. same franchise as a general election, and the past AV referendum > A non-trivial number of b…
> it is impossible to have a truly binding referendum: they are all advisory as nothing can bind parliament, even a referendum result That may be the case in theory: Even if Parliament made a law saying a referendum was binding, it could later undo it. But they didn't even pretend it was binding, although there was a precedent from the alternative vote referendum, which was explicitly binding according to the act aut…
The enabling legislation for the referendum infamously didn't say anything about the specific consequences of a decision either way. In particular, and contrary to comments by someone else in this discussion, it also didn't say anything specific about being binding or not on any specific party to do any specific thing.
However, in the debates on the legislation, MP after MP, up to and including government ministers, stood up in the House and said that they intended to give voters the final say in the decision. You can read this in Hansard, and it was really very clear what those MPs thought they were voting for.
The leaflet, distributed to all households in the UK by the government at taxpayers' expense, also gave a very clear and unambiguous statement to the same effect. Absent evidence to the contrary, it seems reasonable to assume that ordinary people voting in the referendum also thought they were voting for what had been described in the official information about it.
The whole non-binding issue only really hit the headlines after the fact, when it started to look like the losing side in the referendum's best opportunity to overturn the result. That's also the time when lots of people in the UK who weren't constitutional lawyers suddenly started being experts on parliamentary sovereignty. (If you want to really heat up a discussion, ask some of those people where the principle of parliamentary sovereignty comes from, throw in a few difficult questions about whether it has any robust legal foundation or democratic authority at all, and then point out that even if it does the principle itself has nothing to do with Parliament being sovereign over the people but rather over other branches of the government.)
I'm actually a moderate when it comes to Brexit itself, but I do have an intense dislike of using sophistry to undermine democracy and civilised government, and I'm sorry to say that there has been more of that than I've seen at any time in my adult life since the Brexit issue became so divisive.
Re: UK parliament to get binding vote on final Brexit deal
#95Earlier quoted context omitted.
> it is impossible to have a truly binding referendum: they are all advisory as nothing can bind parliament, even a referendum result That may be the case in theory: Even if Parliament made a law saying a referendum was binding, it could later undo it. But they didn't even pretend it was binding, although there was a precedent from the alternative vote referendum, which was explicitly binding according to the act aut…
That isn't a very strong argument. The enabling legislation for the referendum infamously didn't say anything about the specific consequences of a decision either way. In particular, and contrary to comments by someone else in this discussion, it also didn't say anything specific about being binding or not on any specific party to do any specific thing. However, in the debates on the legislation, MP after MP, up to a…
Not sure what you're referring to. The fact that there was precedent that MPs could have copied and pasted to be on the safe side and avoid the Supreme Court having to decide? It's their job to make good laws, not just to give speeches suggesting what their unwritten intentions may be.
> The leaflet, distributed to all households in the UK by the government at taxpayers' expense, also gave a very clear and unambiguous statement
Yes, but as we know, the entire point of the court case was that that statement was not the government's to give.
> The whole non-binding issue only really hit the headlines after the fact
That may well be, but it does not invalidate the legal argument behind it.
Don't take my word for it. Don't take the words of "lots of people in the UK who weren't constitutional lawyers". Take the Supreme Court's. Do you really think its ruling is "using sophistry to undermine democracy and civilised government"?
I understand that you dislike the way these debates have developed. I don't understand why you don't blame this on the MPs who had the power to prevent it.
Re: UK parliament to get binding vote on final Brexit deal
#96It saddens me to no extent witnessing a formerly great country falling deep in the abyss of irrelevance, propelled and fueled by a remarkable societal and intellectual isolationism improper in this time and age. Not to mention the implicit bigotry, racism and xenophobia of the whole Brexit deal. Interesting times indeed. In a sense, social media et al. are fulfilling the place that widespread newspapers first, and la…
> "formerly great"
Define "great" – if you meant: "formerly the largest empire in history" – then I find your opposition to racism and bigotry rather at odds with that sentiment. You think Britons were less racist when they reigned over much of the world? You think colonial rule over "barbaric" nations was a mark of greatness? Or is racism justified when you have such power?
Alternatively, if you meant "formerly a contented member of the EU, that appeared to be a champion of globalisation, diversity and tolerance" I fail to see how the country has lost its greatness. It's still a largely open and tolerant country, this hasn't changed just because a misinformed public voted to leave the EU. I would hardly say of the USA that it was "formerly great" because its citizens elected the current president into office. I believe the American people are still largely tolerant, those who are intolerant were so already.
> "improper in this time and age"
You overestimate humanity.
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Ultimately, your mistake is to equate the UK's decline to its leaving the EU. The UK has been declining in influence for a long time. It was nearly bankrupt after WW2. The years after WW2 saw the continuing rise of the USA and the former USSR. The UK's empire has been dismantled over time and without the resources of the world at its disposal, the UK's influence could only decrease until it was at a level appropriate for a country of its size.
The UK will probably miss its privileged membership to the EU, and it will decline more in the short and medium term, but in the long term it will bounce back. What the UK needs now is a government with some modern economic, political and technical acumen. Unfortunately I do not believe any party currently in existence in the UK can provide such government.
I miss some things about my home land, but in so many ways it is stuck in the past, because government after government has dragged its heels when it comes to updating infrastructure and public services.
Re: UK parliament to get binding vote on final Brexit deal
#97Earlier quoted context omitted.
That isn't a very strong argument. The enabling legislation for the referendum infamously didn't say anything about the specific consequences of a decision either way. In particular, and contrary to comments by someone else in this discussion, it also didn't say anything specific about being binding or not on any specific party to do any specific thing. However, in the debates on the legislation, MP after MP, up to a…
> That isn't a very strong argument. Not sure what you're referring to. The fact that there was precedent that MPs could have copied and pasted to be on the safe side and avoid the Supreme Court having to decide? It's their job to make good laws, not just to give speeches suggesting what their unwritten intentions may be. > The leaflet, distributed to all households in the UK by the government at taxpayers' expense,…
The whole argument about the referendum being non-binding.
As a matter of democratic government, the people were given a say in a referendum. That referendum was, as far as I can tell, properly conducted according to the rules known in advance. By the standards of any national vote, including things like general elections, the turnout was high, and while the margin was not huge, the option that received the most votes was clear. Both MPs' intent and the people's expectation before the vote was apparently that the decision being made was final.
Beyond that, one can argue about legal technicalities and constitutional nuance, but it doesn't change the result. Disregarding that result, in the absence of a further popular vote or other similarly authoritative step, would IMHO have no popular mandate, without which again IMHO a government has no legitimacy in the first place.
(Just to be clear, my whole argument here is really about the democratic legitimacy of the process. The integrity of our system of government is, to me, a higher priority than any individual decisions or actions by any current part of the government, just as in other situations I might defend someone's right to express an opinion even though I personally did not agree with it.)
It's their job to make good laws, not just to give speeches suggesting what their unwritten intentions may be.
Indeed, but it is an imperfect world and even legislators and lawyers sometimes leave ambiguity in their wording. When that happens, we need to take some intelligent and hopefully fair and transparent view on how to interpret the law in question.
As it happens, there does seem to be some legal precedent for considering what was said in Parliament in the process of making the law to resolve such ambiguities. The House of Lords changed the previous standard of considering Parliamentary commentary as privileged and allowed the use of material from Hansard under some conditions, in Pepper v Hart. I was a little surprised that the Leave side didn't try to rely on that sort of argument during the court challenge.
That may well be, but it does not invalidate the legal argument behind it.
Indeed. But equally, a legal argument can never invalidate a moral/ethical one. If the view of the people on a specific matter has been explicitly asked and answered, I struggle to accept a government that then disregards that view as legitimately representing its people.
Take the Supreme Court's. Do you really think its ruling is "using sophistry to undermine democracy and civilised government"?
Assuming we're talking about the Supreme Court case regarding whether the government had to consult Parliament before triggering Article 50, as far as I know these kinds of arguments were not pursued in detail.
I haven't read the whole thing, but my understanding is that both sides stipulated that the referendum was non-binding, the enabling legislation didn't explicitly give the government the power or obligation to do anything specific after a leave vote, the government didn't attempt to invoke Pepper v Hart or any similar implicit authority, and the action the government wanted to take would have legislative effects. How could the Supreme Court have reached any other decision than it did if those were the facts of the case and accepted by both sides?
No doubt such senior judges were considering all kinds of details carefully before reaching their decision, but it seemed to me at the time that the government never really presented much of an argument.
I don't understand why you don't blame this on the MPs who had the power to prevent it.
I don't think MPs did have the power to prevent it, though. As a matter of law, it seems our highest authorities accept that Parliament currently has no mechanism to legislate for a binding referendum. If MPs had been more explicit in the Referendum Act then it might have saved everyone some time and hassle, but it's hard to believe it would have entirely avoided all the debate over whether the result was binding given the controversial nature of the subject.
My personal view is that the best way to avoid such problems would be to have a proper written constitution that provided explicitly for binding referendums on matters of such importance as part of the machinery of government. Sadly, I have yet to be named Supreme Ruler Of The Universe, and so implementing such a constitution is beyond my power. For now. ;-)
Re: UK parliament to get binding vote on final Brexit deal
#98Earlier quoted context omitted.
That's massive by the standards of modern democracy. Can you name any issue which more people have voted on? Far less people than that vote in most governments.
Yes I can. Here in Australia we've just held a non-compulsory national poll (technically a survey not a vote, although it's been debated in public as though it were a plebiscite) on making the legislative changes to permit same-sex marriage. The turnout is 78.5% of eligible voters, thereby exceeding the Brexit voter participation rate. NB: The comparison may be confounded by local behavioural standards. Participation…
Re: UK parliament to get binding vote on final Brexit deal
#99Earlier quoted context omitted.
> That isn't a very strong argument. Not sure what you're referring to. The fact that there was precedent that MPs could have copied and pasted to be on the safe side and avoid the Supreme Court having to decide? It's their job to make good laws, not just to give speeches suggesting what their unwritten intentions may be. > The leaflet, distributed to all households in the UK by the government at taxpayers' expense,…
Not sure what you're referring to. The whole argument about the referendum being non-binding. As a matter of democratic government, the people were given a say in a referendum. That referendum was, as far as I can tell, properly conducted according to the rules known in advance. By the standards of any national vote, including things like general elections, the turnout was high, and while the margin was not huge, the…
I don't understand what you are basing this statement on. In the AV referendum, the act basically said "if the vote comes out yes, the minister must do X; otherwise, the minister must refrain from doing X but must do Y". This is really not complicated, and as we are agreed, Parliament's acts can bind the government in such ways.
> My personal view is that the best way to avoid such problems would be to have a proper written constitution that provided explicitly for binding referendums
I agree, which is why I find it bizarre that in this particular case you are arguing against the importance of writing down whether a referendum is intended to be binding or not, and what consequences on the government's actions it will have.
Re: UK parliament to get binding vote on final Brexit deal
#100Earlier quoted context omitted.
The idea that Article 50 is unilaterally reversible is an odd one. I know that one of the people that helped write it says it was written with that intent, but the wording gives no indication or mechanism to reverse it. And if it is unilaterally reversible, surely that's a really bad thing? There are two reasons I can think of for that. Firstly, countries might start to use it as a form of leverage and brinkmanship i…
It is only odd in that it gives a leaving member that changes it mind some leverage against the EU, an escape hatch effectively. The author of the document and others have also admitted that nobody thought the document would ever be put to use - it is not a battle tested document. And it's silent on whether it can be unilaterally revoked or not. But as a matter of law the weight of opinion leans in favour of the opti…
When you change it from that pure form, you give opportunity for all sorts of perverse motivations to creep in.