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UK parliament to get binding vote on final Brexit deal

bbc.co.uk

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Re: UK parliament to get binding vote on final Brexit deal

#71

Post by SllX »

andy_ppp wrote: post #53
SllX wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This type of turnout is not uncommon in democratic states with voter turnout in the UK in particular hovering around that figure[0] since 1945. Yet they still decide laws, amend constitutions, control their military and command a domestic monopoly on sanctioned violence. By the laws and constitution[1] of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, the people voted for Brexit. [0] http://www.ukpolitical…

I mean sure, but I'd personally assume people who didn't vote are happy with the status quo. Huge constitutional changes should be difficult.

I prefer not to make assumptions, particularly as it relates to the finicky nature and opinions of millions of people. It actually doesn't even matter what the people who didn't vote think because they removed themselves from the voting pool and lost the only ground they had to stand on when they had their personal chance to prevent Brexit from happening.

The result came out to be what it was maybe because they chose not to vote, maybe if they had voted it would have been a different result and yet they still chose not to for whatever reasons made sense to them at that time on that day.

I also agree huge constitutional changes should be difficult, but so far Brexit has overcome every challenge and roadblock including a democratic referendum that may not have been the right referendum to hold, that may have even set the threshold too low, and yet it was what it was, with the ground rules declared in advance including the simple majority requirement, and still passed. Clearly the people in favour of Brexit were the more determined part of the voting public to make their voices heard.

Whether it was the political will of the people that did vote, or the political apathy of the people that didn't, that hardly matters now.

Re: UK parliament to get binding vote on final Brexit deal

#72

Post by presidente20 »

danpalmer wrote: post #15
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> EU rules don't allow article 50 to be reverted Those rules can be changed by the unanimous opinion of European states. Practically speaking, the deal Britain had before is gone. It might be able to re-enter if it gives up its asterisks, though. Bone-headed move by its people, either way.

> Bone-headed move by its people By a minority I'd like to clarify. 51.8% voted for it, of a 72% turnout, of an electorate that is only around 69% of the population. That works out at around 25% of the population voting for it.

That's massive by the standards of modern democracy. Can you name any issue which more people have voted on? Far less people than that vote in most governments.

Re: UK parliament to get binding vote on final Brexit deal

#73

Post by tom_mellior »

blibble wrote: post #41
TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Young people were excluded from the referendum vote. Certain demographics living outside of the UK - who are normally allowed to vote in elections - were excluded from the referendum vote. A non-trivial number of ballots for foreign residents were sent out too late to be counted. The original Parliamentary Act for the referendum explicitly defined it as advisory. Most referenda are run on the basis that a super-major…

I don't think you could be more intellectually dishonest if you tried > Young people were excluded from the referendum vote. same franchise as a general election, and the past AV referendum > Certain demographics living outside of the UK - who are normally allowed to vote in elections - were excluded from the referendum vote. same franchise as a general election, and the past AV referendum > A non-trivial number of b…

> it is impossible to have a truly binding referendum: they are all advisory as nothing can bind parliament, even a referendum result

That may be the case in theory: Even if Parliament made a law saying a referendum was binding, it could later undo it. But they didn't even pretend it was binding, although there was a precedent from the alternative vote referendum, which was explicitly binding according to the act authorizing it.

That also would have saved all the High Court hoopla that followed.

Re: UK parliament to get binding vote on final Brexit deal

#74

Post by s_dev »

laingc wrote: post #56
ealexhudson wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not just that, but Davis confirmed no deal == no vote. Indeed, it's difficult to see how they could have a sensible vote in the absence of a deal to vote on, but since this is the most likely outcome as we stand (the UK Govt have no solution to the Irish border issue, and there's a substantial rebellion in the Tory party against paying the EU any money) then the most likely outcome is still no vote :(

Actually, the UK government has a very good solution to the Irish border issue, which the Irish are in favour of. It is the EU that will not allow it.

Thats because it was always up to the EU and never up to Ireland. It's an EU border effectively.

UK politicians before referendum pointed out that they were willing to preserve the CTA (common travel area between Ireland and UK) which predated -- but importantly doesn't supercede the EU. Irish politicians pointed this out but were largely ignored by UK press.

>It is the EU that will not allow it.

I suspect you're alluding that this is somehow the EU's fault. It really isn't -- and the finger points 100% at the UK. There are treaties and agreements going back decades including for instance the Good Friday Agreement on which all peace in N.Ireland is largely credited. The lack of a border is mandated by this international and binding agreement which UK seems happy to simply ignore.

Re: UK parliament to get binding vote on final Brexit deal

#75

Post by mike-cardwell »

This is a goal for the Tories. Now the deal is going to be approved by parliament, so they can share around the full blame if it doesn't work out well. And if parliament votes against the bill, well the proceeding clusterfuck wont be the Tories fault, it will be everybody elses.

Re: UK parliament to get binding vote on final Brexit deal

#76

Post by namelost »

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #50
PeachPlum wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

see also: Presented to Parliament by the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs by Command of Her Majesty, February 2016 2.1 The result of the referendum on the UK’s membership of the European Union will be final.

Genuine question, what does that line mean? Is it saying, the UK will have to leave the EU (for whatever definition of "leave") if that side of the vote wins. Is it saying that the UK cannot change its mind ever i.e. it cannot rejoin even after a change of governtment and a second referendum?. Or is it just saying, the result of the vote is the result?

It was a government policy, not a law. It is basically meaningless.

Re: UK parliament to get binding vote on final Brexit deal

#77

Post by tom_mellior »

cletus wrote: post #66

So I've been watching (and shaking my head) at this whole Brexit fiasco with both some personal interest (UK and thus current EU citizen) and more general interest in that the Leave vote was basically a protest vote against immigration that seemed to basically get out of hand. We can peg a lot of the blame for this on David Cameron who initiated a referendum (I assume he thought would never pass) without any plan to…

> a lot of poorer EU citizens did go to the UK to essentially go on welfare

Do you have actual sources to back this up? As in, where it actually happened, as opposed to everyone talking about it supposedly happening? EU law makes it very clear that the freedom of movement does not hold in such cases. EU citizens who never worked in the UK would not be entitled to welfare and be subject to repatriation. (Or, I should say, if the UK did grant such welfare rights, that would be based on its own decision, not on any EU requirements.)

Re: UK parliament to get binding vote on final Brexit deal

#78

Post by presidente20 »

danpalmer wrote: post #51
Tech-Noir wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That works out at around 25% of the population voting for it. Correct, newborn babies were denied a vote. What percentage of the British population voted to Remain in the EU, out of curiosity?

And those who will _on average_ die before we leave, voted overwhelmingly in favour of leaving, tipping the balance.

That's right, lets disregard the views of the people with life experience in favour of a bunch of highly impressionable, inexperienced teenagers.

Re: UK parliament to get binding vote on final Brexit deal

#79

Post by inopinatus »

presidente20 wrote: post #72
danpalmer wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Bone-headed move by its people By a minority I'd like to clarify. 51.8% voted for it, of a 72% turnout, of an electorate that is only around 69% of the population. That works out at around 25% of the population voting for it.

That's massive by the standards of modern democracy. Can you name any issue which more people have voted on? Far less people than that vote in most governments.

Yes I can. Here in Australia we've just held a non-compulsory national poll (technically a survey not a vote, although it's been debated in public as though it were a plebiscite) on making the legislative changes to permit same-sex marriage. The turnout is 78.5% of eligible voters, thereby exceeding the Brexit voter participation rate.

NB: The comparison may be confounded by local behavioural standards. Participation in this survey wasn't compulsory, but Australia has mandatory voting in most local and national elections. So there may be a prevailing culture of compliance. Nevertheless, a cursory review of the popular press suggests the turnout is substantially higher than that expected by most pundits.

Re: UK parliament to get binding vote on final Brexit deal

#80

Post by MarkCole »

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #64
PeachPlum wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the thing about referenda, if you want to have a say in the outcome, you have to cast your vote, not sit at home Presented to Parliament by the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs by Command of Her Majesty, February 2016 2.1 The result of the referendum on the UK’s membership of the European Union will be final.

There is a key difference betwen "this is the will of the people" and "this is the will of the people that we allowed to vote, and who found the time to make it along on the day". People aged 16-18 and people living abroad are two groups that had no option but to sit at home and are both considered anti-Brexit.

British Expats living abroad were allowed to vote. As long as you lived in the UK within the last 15 years you can vote in Elections and Referendums.
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