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Brilliant Jerks in Engineering

brendangregg.com

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Re: Brilliant Jerks in Engineering

#61

Post by jhjwe888 »

bjt2n3904 wrote: post #45

I'm not entirely sure I subscribe to this "behavior based" vs "merit based" look at job performance. Consider this criterion: > 1. After encountering the person, do people feel oppressed, humiliated or otherwise worse about themselves? Bob and Mary are staunch members of . While they never discuss it at work, Mary deeply resents the views Bob posts on social media. During a code review, Bob is bluntly critical of Mar…

Yeah there's a question here that isn't being asked (probably many really):

Are people feeling that way because of the interaction, or because of buried bias or unresolved emotional issues?

I'd rather we advocate for improving our mental health benefits and access, and really bring these things to fore front.

Not have armchair experts in the topic peddle half felt/considered examples simply because they want to be left alone to focus on their fetishes.

These sort of things feel like a "us v them." Corporate wants to make money, so corporate is going to push casting emotional non-conformists aside.

That might help corporate operate more efficiently, but it's not helping humanity.

IMO, as a non-expert in mental health kind of disappointing that Brendan Gregg is saying these things.

All these wonderfully successful people who have society as a whole to thank for a lot of it, want nothing to do with a conversation on improving society if it is a distraction FOR THEM.

Re: Brilliant Jerks in Engineering

#62

Post by gcommer »

crdoconnor wrote: post #46
mamoswined wrote: post #2

I was so Alice for much of my career. I know this is going to sound totally cliche because this book get's recommended everywhere, but How to Win Friends and Influence People really did help me.

I prefer working with "Alices". It's refreshing to see people actually called on their bullshit. IMHO there's also a limit to how much you can spare everybody's feelings and still be effective at that ^^. I think the OP believed that there isn't a limit. I think he's wrong. In a corporate environment, there's almost no value in actually being one though. Linus Torvalds would almost never be promoted and would frequen…

Most of the "Alice" types I know come from a background in academia, which strongly selects for these types of people who can leave their emotions at the door and iterate on ideas quickly and rationally. None of the complaints raised in this article apply to teams composed entirely of "Alice" types (and the most productive labs I've worked in demonstrate this; and towards this goal I actively practice to become more "Alice"-like)

Re: Brilliant Jerks in Engineering

#63

Post by 1001101 »

Google has an interesting philosophy on this:

""" Cosgrove asked them to elaborate on the idea: "exile the knaves, but fight for the divas."

Rosenberg said maintaining Google's collaborative culture requires weeding out and getting rid of the knaves: Employees who lack integrity, who are jealous of their peers, take credit for others' work, and think only of themselves. "Nice humble engineers have a way of becoming insufferable when they think they are the sole inventors of the world's next big thing," they write in their book. "This is quite dangerous, as ego creates blind spots... Nip crazy in the bud."

Divas, on the other hand, display "high exceptionalism," Rosenberg said. If the divas are brilliant and doing a good job, they should be valued and allowed to do their jobs. "As long as ... the divas' achievements outweigh the collateral damage caused by their diva ways, you should fight for them."

"They will pay off your investment by doing interesting things," they write. "...Remember that Steve Jobs was one of the greatest business divas the world has ever known!" """ [1]

[1] http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2014/10/googles_...

Re: Brilliant Jerks in Engineering

#64

Post by vemv »

arcanus wrote: post #35
vemv wrote: post #31

I'd add that from an engineering perspective, 'brilliant' jerks aren't even that brilliant. An actually intelligent person is happy to prove his thinking via truthful argumentation (and unit tests, documentation, and so on), and also happy to get his points refuted by similarly reasonable peers. Anything other than that approach is noise.

> Anything other than that approach is noise. Agree with everything except: 'Anything other than that approach is noise.' It is signal that the individual is not capable, and dangerous to work with.

A noisy signal :) I meant noise from as in 'low information, high annoyance'

Re: Brilliant Jerks in Engineering

#65

Post by mars4rp »

fhood wrote: post #57
mars4rp wrote: post #53

I am an Alice and I need some feedback as why is it a bad thing! I work in an environment when very small percentage of people know what are they doing. and people that know what is going on do not speak up because they are frustrated and know probably nothing will change. in this environment I do speak up whenever I get a chance and I've been in arguments with managers 3 4 level above me. everybody else wants to be…

You are wrong because the vast majority of people take criticism personally. It turns out that when you tell people they are wrong and present them with reasons they are wrong, a surprising number of people double down. I'm sure you have heard this before, but you have to make them think it was their idea. Edit Source: I make this mistake all the god damn time, and never realize it until the person breaks and finally…

I see your point and I agree with you, but it is so hard to put ideas in peoples head! and it is taking so much effort! you can't do that in a meeting when 10 other people are sitting! I guess there is no way to get around it and I should just give up !

Re: Brilliant Jerks in Engineering

#66

Post by mighty_bander »

mars4rp wrote: post #53

I am an Alice and I need some feedback as why is it a bad thing! I work in an environment when very small percentage of people know what are they doing. and people that know what is going on do not speak up because they are frustrated and know probably nothing will change. in this environment I do speak up whenever I get a chance and I've been in arguments with managers 3 4 level above me. everybody else wants to be…

The article points out the damage that being an Alice can cause - some people (most people, really) are affected by the way others treat them, so when you are right, and someone else is wrong (and you are certain of that ;) ) you can add a bonus to your technical contributions by mentoring that person. Winning an argument is hard and doesn't fix underlying problems with competency, but mentoring someone will build up good will. Instead of feeling like they have lost or been proven inferior, the "opponent" in this case will correctly believe they have grown technically.

The way to do that is all in phrasing, tone of voice, and general respectful treatment. If, like me, this is not something that comes naturally to you, it might be worth searching google for a few little tricks that will help you to resolve disagreements. The Socratic method - using questions instead of statements - can be effective. It has also helped in my experience to describe similar situations in which the course of action you support has proven itself.

When speaking with managers who make a bad suggestion, it is helpful to explain that the course of action they are proposing was considered, and why it was rejected. That will reassure them that you are on top of the situation, and (in the case of a good manager) show that you are able to do your work without your assistance.

Of course if your manager's ego is tied to his/her suggestions, which is common, you're probably SOL. The most effective way I have seen a team deal with that is to implement the bad suggestions as quickly and flexibly as possible in order to minimise the damage to the schedule, the project, and so on.

Re: Brilliant Jerks in Engineering

#67

Post by stuffedBelly »

> coworkers become accomplices, and gaslight his abuse

Personally I think this is the worst part. It's much harder to deal with a group of jerks and their like-minds. A group typically self-justifies their behaviors and more likely to defy company policies. That's why bullies typically come in packs.

Re: Brilliant Jerks in Engineering

#68

Post by wallace_f »

fhood wrote: post #57
mars4rp wrote: post #53

I am an Alice and I need some feedback as why is it a bad thing! I work in an environment when very small percentage of people know what are they doing. and people that know what is going on do not speak up because they are frustrated and know probably nothing will change. in this environment I do speak up whenever I get a chance and I've been in arguments with managers 3 4 level above me. everybody else wants to be…

You are wrong because the vast majority of people take criticism personally. It turns out that when you tell people they are wrong and present them with reasons they are wrong, a surprising number of people double down. I'm sure you have heard this before, but you have to make them think it was their idea. Edit Source: I make this mistake all the god damn time, and never realize it until the person breaks and finally…

I have made this mistake all the time in life as well. Even with some things that seem to have no political, religious, etc. angle to them, and are just very easy to Google and verify in a heartbeat.

This is going to sound ridiculous, but I thought I'd open up for example. In university I adamently refuted the moon landing conspiracy of a group partner. I didn't realize this would offend, but it did. She did a lot of extremely vindictive things after that, and even tried to (with some success, I might add) incite anger towards me from other group members.

Some people become extremely defensive and then aggressive, perhaps it is especially so if you are the nerdy-humble-well-intentioned-Alice-low-gravitas type...

Knowing when to correct someone and when to keep quiet is something I have become a lot better at with age. It took a lot of learning the hard way though.

I would hope others are understanding that not everyone who is perceived as a jerk, actually intends it.

Re: Brilliant Jerks in Engineering

#69

Post by meheleventyone »

mars4rp wrote: post #53

I am an Alice and I need some feedback as why is it a bad thing! I work in an environment when very small percentage of people know what are they doing. and people that know what is going on do not speak up because they are frustrated and know probably nothing will change. in this environment I do speak up whenever I get a chance and I've been in arguments with managers 3 4 level above me. everybody else wants to be…

Acting without tact and diplomacy is probably hurting your end goal. You want to build allies in a common cause rather than alienate people that can help.

Re: Brilliant Jerks in Engineering

#70

Post by fhood »

mars4rp wrote: post #65
fhood wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are wrong because the vast majority of people take criticism personally. It turns out that when you tell people they are wrong and present them with reasons they are wrong, a surprising number of people double down. I'm sure you have heard this before, but you have to make them think it was their idea. Edit Source: I make this mistake all the god damn time, and never realize it until the person breaks and finally…

I see your point and I agree with you, but it is so hard to put ideas in peoples head! and it is taking so much effort! you can't do that in a meeting when 10 other people are sitting! I guess there is no way to get around it and I should just give up !

Yeah, this works better in one on ones, but usually I don't think it is that hard, particularly if the other person respects your opinion. The trick is rather than shooting down ideas, present alternatives, and guide the other person through finding the flaws on their own.(Note: Doing this without sounding patronizing can be difficult)
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