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UK parliament to get binding vote on final Brexit deal

bbc.co.uk

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Re: UK parliament to get binding vote on final Brexit deal

#61
post #9

This is only useful if the binding vote is to decide whether to accept the deal or revert Article 50.

The idea that Article 50 is unilaterally reversible is an odd one. I know that one of the people that helped write it says it was written with that intent, but the wording gives no indication or mechanism to reverse it. And if it is unilaterally reversible, surely that's a really bad thing? There are two reasons I can think of for that. Firstly, countries might start to use it as a form of leverage and brinkmanship i…

It is only odd in that it gives a leaving member that changes it mind some leverage against the EU, an escape hatch effectively.

The author of the document and others have also admitted that nobody thought the document would ever be put to use - it is not a battle tested document. And it's silent on whether it can be unilaterally revoked or not.

But as a matter of law the weight of opinion leans in favour of the option of unilateral revocation as long as it meets the principle of sincere cooperation. Unilateral revocation as a means of extracting additional concessions runs foul of that, so it really only works if it is part of a genuine u-turn.

Imagine though if the leaving member decided to revoke A50 as a means of resetting the negotiation or forcing the EU into concessions: it wouldn't work. Any subsequent attempt to withdraw by the member will be met with a much harsher EU. No additional legal devices are needed to drive this home. The EU can decide to impose bigger concessions, more conditions and higher costs to any future agreement. The leaving member needs a deal at some point, so the EU will always have the upper hand here they are just more likely to raise the costs on the leaving member if it engages in such shenanigans.

Re: UK parliament to get binding vote on final Brexit deal

#62
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dislike this argument. By that line of reasoning, every government we've had in my lifetime has been illegitimate, elected only by a tiny minority of the population.

I'm not saying it wasn't legitimate or legal, just that _most_ of us did not vote for it, which is why I felt "bone headed people" was too much of a generalisation.

With power comes responsibility. The flip side of suffrage is responsibility. Abstaining from (or casting a blank ballot in) an election or referendum is, practically, dividing your vote amongst those who show up.

(Someone who is not eligible to vote is not really one of a country's people. They're its visitors, children, felons, what have you.)

Re: UK parliament to get binding vote on final Brexit deal

#63
post #8

This is only useful if the binding vote is to decide whether to accept the deal or revert Article 50.

EU rules don't allow article 50 to be reverted. The binding vote is between accepting the deal and a hard drop.

Nonsense, only the ECJ can rule on this and it can only do so if a case is brought.

Re: UK parliament to get binding vote on final Brexit deal

#64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's arguably more significant in this case as those that didn't vote were around 75% in favour of remain. It's not common to hear of such a differential between the intentions of those who did not vote compared to those who did. Had everyone voted, remain would have won by a large margin. http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2016/10/24/brexit-is-not-the-w...

That's the thing about referenda, if you want to have a say in the outcome, you have to cast your vote, not sit at home Presented to Parliament by the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs by Command of Her Majesty, February 2016 2.1 The result of the referendum on the UK’s membership of the European Union will be final.

There is a key difference betwen "this is the will of the people" and "this is the will of the people that we allowed to vote, and who found the time to make it along on the day".

People aged 16-18 and people living abroad are two groups that had no option but to sit at home and are both considered anti-Brexit.

Re: UK parliament to get binding vote on final Brexit deal

#66
So I've been watching (and shaking my head) at this whole Brexit fiasco with both some personal interest (UK and thus current EU citizen) and more general interest in that the Leave vote was basically a protest vote against immigration that seemed to basically get out of hand.

We can peg a lot of the blame for this on David Cameron who initiated a referendum (I assume he thought would never pass) without any plan to move forward nor any clarity on whether the Commons needed to vote on Article 50 (so add a few months of uncertainty while that got litigated).

May of course isn't short on blame either with her ridiculous snap election that weakened her position.

So now we go to the negotiating stances of each party, most of which was obvious beforehand and it just makes the whole Leave campaign even more ill-conceived.

For one, UK voters seem to primarily limit EU immigration, particularly from the poorer Eastern European states (Poland tends to get singled out here). While the EU (or EC or EEC or whatever it was at the time you want to talk about) was a collection of rich states, you didn't have a lot of problems that became problems once you had member states with a vast disparity in per-capita GDP. The net effect was a lot of poorer EU citizens did go to the UK to essentially go on welfare because it was more than they could reasonably earn (if they could even get jobs) in their home countries. And that situation is untenable.

The EU however is committed to freedom of movement as a core principle so this was difficult to negotiate but I'm actually sure over time a solution could've been found to ameliorate anti-immigration sentient to some degree.

See while the UK was in the EU they always had the threat of leaving as a negotiating tactic. The problem with pulling the trigger is you can no longer hang that threat over their heads.

Anyway, the UK at the same time wants to limit immigration but retain freedom of movement and not hand over wads of money to the EU. Oh and let's have free trade while we're at it.

If that sounds familiar it's exactly like the current (in the EU) situation except for limiting immigration.

It's clear that the EU could never and would never agree to that. Nor would the UK get the Switzerland/Norway EFTA treatment either since the EU wants to discourage anyone else taking the UK's lead.

So now the EU doesn't want any discussions on trade and other issues until the UK agrees to a "divorce settlement". The problems with this tactic are that the UK handing over huge sums of cash to the EU was second to immigration as a reason for people to vote Leave and, more importantly, how can you agree on a price for something and then go on to negotiate what you've bought?

It doesn't make any sense. Like, would you buy a car for me when we first negotiate a binding agreement for you to pay me $50,000 and then we negotiate what you get for that?

The EU actually needs the money from the UK to balance their own budget so the EU has got a lot to lose here.

From the outside looking in however, it really looks like the UK's best option at this point is a "hard exit" since any deal at this point will probably be worse than staying in the EU would've been.

I do wonder if it's possible for the UK and EU to back down and have a do-over on Article 50. I suspect it is possible but probably politically untenable in the UK.

What a mess.

Re: UK parliament to get binding vote on final Brexit deal

#67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That works out at around 25% of the population voting for it. Correct, newborn babies were denied a vote. What percentage of the British population voted to Remain in the EU, out of curiosity?

And those who will _on average_ die before we leave, voted overwhelmingly in favour of leaving, tipping the balance.

Should those people be excluded from every vote or only the votes whose outcome you disagree with?

Re: UK parliament to get binding vote on final Brexit deal

#68
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not just that, but Davis confirmed no deal == no vote. Indeed, it's difficult to see how they could have a sensible vote in the absence of a deal to vote on, but since this is the most likely outcome as we stand (the UK Govt have no solution to the Irish border issue, and there's a substantial rebellion in the Tory party against paying the EU any money) then the most likely outcome is still no vote :(

Actually, the UK government has a very good solution to the Irish border issue, which the Irish are in favour of. It is the EU that will not allow it.

Can you provide a link? Considering I work in the Irish Government, Dept of Foreign Affairs, I would appreciate you providing what it is that HMG has offered, that we the Irish Government have accepted and that you claim the EU will not allow. Please I'll wait. (For those of you not aware the commentator is talking complete bollox.)

Re: UK parliament to get binding vote on final Brexit deal

#69
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea that Article 50 is unilaterally reversible is an odd one. I know that one of the people that helped write it says it was written with that intent, but the wording gives no indication or mechanism to reverse it. And if it is unilaterally reversible, surely that's a really bad thing? There are two reasons I can think of for that. Firstly, countries might start to use it as a form of leverage and brinkmanship i…

Practically speaking, if the United Kingdom on January 1st, 2019 declares its previous Article 50 declaration was unlawfully issued, I have a hard time seeing the EU gathering the stomach to essentially enforce sanctions against the United Kingdom. This could all end up being a weird "did you know Britain isn't technically in the EU?" factoid in a hundred years.

Exactly, the EU and UK are soveriegns, they'll do whatever they want, lots of countries ratified EU treaties after their populations voted against it. The same can happen in reverse.

The EU wants to heavily penalize the UK to prevent others from leaving.

Similar, to how in Vancouver the federal gov't says pot is illegal, but no one will ever bust you for it.

Re: UK parliament to get binding vote on final Brexit deal

#70
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Not to mention the implicit bigotry, racism and xenophobia of the whole Brexit deal explain?

I am an EU citizen living in the UK for 11 years (my whole adult life) so this is from my perspective. The campaign and reasons given for leaving were extremely xenophobic. There was a lot of talk of EU citizens "clogging up" the healthcare system and emigrating to the UK to claim benefits instead of working. Almost none of this was based on fact but it almost certainly swung the vote. Other reasons such as sovereign…

Both campaigns were guilty of misinformation but the most blatant outrage was the UK government itself spending £9 ($12) million of the British people's money producing and delivering one-sided pro-EU propaganda to every address in the UK.

Edit: For people downvoting the above factual post:

Government's £9m EU 'propaganda' leaflet has left public LESS well informed, study shows:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/governments-9m-eu-propa...

EU referendum: PM 'makes no apology' for £9m EU leaflets:

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35984991

The propaganda itself:

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachm...

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