UK parliament to get binding vote on final Brexit deal • Hacker News Board

Re: UK parliament to get binding vote on final Brexit deal

#41

Post by blibble » Mon, Nov 13, 2017, 6:23 PM UTC

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #21

danpalmer wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Bone-headed move by its people By a minority I'd like to clarify. 51.8% voted for it, of a 72% turnout, of an electorate that is only around 69% of the population. That works out at around 25% of the population voting for it.

Young people were excluded from the referendum vote. Certain demographics living outside of the UK - who are normally allowed to vote in elections - were excluded from the referendum vote. A non-trivial number of ballots for foreign residents were sent out too late to be counted. The original Parliamentary Act for the referendum explicitly defined it as advisory. Most referenda are run on the basis that a super-major…

I don't think you could be more intellectually dishonest if you tried

> Young people were excluded from the referendum vote.

same franchise as a general election, and the past AV referendum

> Certain demographics living outside of the UK - who are normally allowed to vote in elections - were excluded from the referendum vote.

same franchise as a general election, and the past AV referendum

> A non-trivial number of ballots for foreign residents were sent out too late to be counted.

too few to have have changed the outcome (Leave had a majority of more than 1.2 million)

> The original Parliamentary Act for the referendum explicitly defined it as advisory.

the doctrine of parliamentary sovereignty means it is impossible to have a truly binding referendum: they are all advisory as nothing can bind parliament, even a referendum result

> Most referenda are run on the basis that a super-majority is required for any significant constitutional change.

all past UK referendums have been 50%+1, as was the Scottish independence referendum

you might not like the result, but it was still perfectly legitimate

Re: UK parliament to get binding vote on final Brexit deal

#42

Post by gruez » Mon, Nov 13, 2017, 6:23 PM UTC

mbroncano wrote: post #38

It saddens me to no extent witnessing a formerly great country falling deep in the abyss of irrelevance, propelled and fueled by a remarkable societal and intellectual isolationism improper in this time and age. Not to mention the implicit bigotry, racism and xenophobia of the whole Brexit deal. Interesting times indeed. In a sense, social media et al. are fulfilling the place that widespread newspapers first, and la…

>Not to mention the implicit bigotry, racism and xenophobia of the whole Brexit deal

explain?

Re: UK parliament to get binding vote on final Brexit deal

#43

Post by Zenst » Mon, Nov 13, 2017, 6:25 PM UTC

danpalmer wrote: post #15

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> EU rules don't allow article 50 to be reverted Those rules can be changed by the unanimous opinion of European states. Practically speaking, the deal Britain had before is gone. It might be able to re-enter if it gives up its asterisks, though. Bone-headed move by its people, either way.

> Bone-headed move by its people By a minority I'd like to clarify. 51.8% voted for it, of a 72% turnout, of an electorate that is only around 69% of the population. That works out at around 25% of the population voting for it.

Not all the population qualified to vote as they are not UK nationals.

There again, statistics often get skewed to fit a narrative-for example: take 100 people and 99 earn barely minimum wage, the 100th is a footballer and paid millions a year. WIth statistics you can claim that those 100 people contribute lots as high earning tax payers. Which highlights how statistics can and do get abused to fit a narrative.

Re: UK parliament to get binding vote on final Brexit deal

#44

Post by neilwilson » Mon, Nov 13, 2017, 6:26 PM UTC

mbroncano wrote: post #38

It saddens me to no extent witnessing a formerly great country falling deep in the abyss of irrelevance, propelled and fueled by a remarkable societal and intellectual isolationism improper in this time and age. Not to mention the implicit bigotry, racism and xenophobia of the whole Brexit deal. Interesting times indeed. In a sense, social media et al. are fulfilling the place that widespread newspapers first, and la…

Time to read up on some British History. The last time this happened was during the reign of George II when the UK rejected Europe and Hanover and turned its eyes to the world.

The tune "Rule Britannia" was the marching song for the 'patriots' who pushed for an independent UK based policy.

The result was the industrial revolution and the UK becoming the pre-eminent power on Earth.

So we've sort of done this before.

Re: UK parliament to get binding vote on final Brexit deal

#45

Post by Tech-Noir » Mon, Nov 13, 2017, 6:28 PM UTC

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #21

danpalmer wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Bone-headed move by its people By a minority I'd like to clarify. 51.8% voted for it, of a 72% turnout, of an electorate that is only around 69% of the population. That works out at around 25% of the population voting for it.

Young people were excluded from the referendum vote. Certain demographics living outside of the UK - who are normally allowed to vote in elections - were excluded from the referendum vote. A non-trivial number of ballots for foreign residents were sent out too late to be counted. The original Parliamentary Act for the referendum explicitly defined it as advisory. Most referenda are run on the basis that a super-major…

> Most referenda are run on the basis that a super-majority is required for any significant constitutional change.

What percentage was required in the Scottish independence referendum?

What percentage was required in the EU/EC exit/remain referendum of 1975?

What percentage was required in the referendum to join the EU/EC in the first place, in 1973?

(The latter being a trick question. There was no referendum to join at all, zero, yet a majority being required (and achieved) to leave is deemed a "horrific travesty of democracy" by people who voted differently.)

Re: UK parliament to get binding vote on final Brexit deal

#46

Post by Zenst » Mon, Nov 13, 2017, 6:31 PM UTC

QAPereo wrote: post #35

lurker456 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it's not reversible. Triggering article 50 means leaving in 2 years or less, it has no provisions to pause or revert the process. The only way to rejoin is with the agreement of all other member states, on new and very likely less favorable terms.

http://www.businessinsider.com/legal-advice-brexit-can-be-re... https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/nov/10/brexit-date... More nuance: http://carnegieeurope.eu/strategiceurope/63955?lang=en In short, the author of Article 50 disagrees.

Shame that said author and all the MEP's since the article was made into law have overlooked displaced nationals and not one of them have thought to address that oversight in article 50 and avoid chaos. That for me highlights how fickle many MEP's are when it comes to politics as they would rather retort to rabble rabble over fixing a long-standing and glaring issue.

Shame on them I say.

Re: UK parliament to get binding vote on final Brexit deal

#47

Post by lucozade » Mon, Nov 13, 2017, 6:32 PM UTC

eertami wrote: post #31

dkersten wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> of a 72% turnout If the other 28% disagree, then they really should have voted against...

It shouldn't have been a vote without requiring a Supermajority and it certainly shouldn't have been a vote without a third, alternative option.

> It shouldn't have been a vote without requiring a Supermajority

Works well on the internet. Bad idea in practice. You have to remember that the government didn't want a referendum. They wanted UKIP neutered and the issue put on the backburner.

If there had been a referendum with anything other than a straight majority, and Leave won a straight majority, all hell would have broken loose. It would likely have split the Tory party and made Farage the most important politician in the country.

Similar argument goes for a 3rd option. They didn't want a sensible alternative, they wanted a "put up or shut up" straight fight. Same as had occurred in Scotland. These referenda (and the AV vote before that) were to put constitutional issues to bed not to find alternatives.

Re: UK parliament to get binding vote on final Brexit deal

#48

Post by danpalmer » Mon, Nov 13, 2017, 6:35 PM UTC

SllX wrote: post #30

danpalmer wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Bone-headed move by its people By a minority I'd like to clarify. 51.8% voted for it, of a 72% turnout, of an electorate that is only around 69% of the population. That works out at around 25% of the population voting for it.

This type of turnout is not uncommon in democratic states with voter turnout in the UK in particular hovering around that figure[0] since 1945. Yet they still decide laws, amend constitutions, control their military and command a domestic monopoly on sanctioned violence. By the laws and constitution[1] of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, the people voted for Brexit. [0] http://www.ukpolitical…

I agree it was legal, I'm just clarifying that it was not all of us who voted for it (or who thought there should have been a public referendum).

Re: UK parliament to get binding vote on final Brexit deal

#49

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Nov 13, 2017, 6:35 PM UTC

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #21

danpalmer wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Bone-headed move by its people By a minority I'd like to clarify. 51.8% voted for it, of a 72% turnout, of an electorate that is only around 69% of the population. That works out at around 25% of the population voting for it.

Young people were excluded from the referendum vote. Certain demographics living outside of the UK - who are normally allowed to vote in elections - were excluded from the referendum vote. A non-trivial number of ballots for foreign residents were sent out too late to be counted. The original Parliamentary Act for the referendum explicitly defined it as advisory. Most referenda are run on the basis that a super-major…

[deleted]

Re: UK parliament to get binding vote on final Brexit deal

#50

Post by ZeroGravitas » Mon, Nov 13, 2017, 6:35 PM UTC

PeachPlum wrote: post #26

Nursie wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea that Article 50 is unilaterally reversible is an odd one. I know that one of the people that helped write it says it was written with that intent, but the wording gives no indication or mechanism to reverse it. And if it is unilaterally reversible, surely that's a really bad thing? There are two reasons I can think of for that. Firstly, countries might start to use it as a form of leverage and brinkmanship i…

see also: Presented to Parliament by the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs by Command of Her Majesty, February 2016 2.1 The result of the referendum on the UK’s membership of the European Union will be final.

Genuine question, what does that line mean?

Is it saying, the UK will have to leave the EU (for whatever definition of "leave") if that side of the vote wins.

Is it saying that the UK cannot change its mind ever i.e. it cannot rejoin even after a change of governtment and a second referendum?.

Or is it just saying, the result of the vote is the result?