Earlier quoted context omitted.
The entire tax bill seems to be sticking it to Democrat states, in particular New York and California, but it is really about urban vs. rural politics. Democrats have become too concentrated as a party in urban areas and so rural voters have gotten enough political power to attempt to address what they view as economic inequities in the current urban/rural income distribution. Republican have also flipped the script…
This narrative isn't consistent with what the actual tax bill does, which is a massive redistribution of wealth to the very richest Americans. For example, what part of repealing the estate tax for inheritances above $5.5 million will help this urban middle class?
Don’t Tax Options and RSUs Upon Vesting
141–150 of 388 posts
Re: Don’t Tax Options and RSUs Upon Vesting
#142Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don't think this is true anymore. I think this is one of those funny vestigial things that evolved in a different era. If you think of a startup as a true "garage venture" with a few people toiling away trying to ship a product, maybe that's the right model. That isn't really the model for SV entrepreneurship anymore, though, even though we kinda pretend it is. How it works today is, $8 million-dollar "seed" rounds…
That’s simply incorrect. I founded a company that raised a mammoth seed round in Silicon Valley (not $8m but more than $3m), and we do pay some high salaries, but Apple and Facebook still pay salaries that are much, much higher. Critical employees have joined us while taking $100,000/yr pay cuts, despite. Having a salary in the six figures. To think that startups can play that game of “equity doesn’t matter” is just…
VCs are much much better equipped to do investing: both in terms of skill sets, experience and information. Employees should not be forced to become angel investors just because they work at a start up.
VCs will always have enough money to invest in truely excellent opportunities. It just means, they'll need to invest more. And in this low interest rate world, I don't think the world is starving for cash is it?
Re: Don’t Tax Options and RSUs Upon Vesting
#143Earlier quoted context omitted.
The entire tax bill seems to be sticking it to Democrat states, in particular New York and California, but it is really about urban vs. rural politics. Democrats have become too concentrated as a party in urban areas and so rural voters have gotten enough political power to attempt to address what they view as economic inequities in the current urban/rural income distribution. Republican have also flipped the script…
This narrative isn't consistent with what the actual tax bill does, which is a massive redistribution of wealth to the very richest Americans. For example, what part of repealing the estate tax for inheritances above $5.5 million will help this urban middle class?
The narrative is that the tax bill is meant to help the rich and the rural red state poor at the expense of the urban blue state middle class.
Re: Don’t Tax Options and RSUs Upon Vesting
#144Earlier quoted context omitted.
What if your goal is for technical talent to prefer companies that make parts for the F-35 that actually function as intended, instead of companies that could be described as "Uber for cat-sitters" or "the Snapchat of Etsy-linked Tumblr posts" or "Pets.com with more tulip bulbs" or "like Facebook, except fronting for GRU instead of NSA"? In that case, it would meet that goal very well. What a pity it is that the tech…
In this instance the exchange you would have to make would be crippling startups and small businesses, which is where the vast majority of the growth of the economy happens. As an aside, how many companies do you see actually building Snapchat for Etsy-linked tumblr posts? I see that criticism of Silicon Valley all the time, yet despite being in the heart of it I rarely see that kind of company. I’d guess an order of…
But I don't get options or RSUs, or even cash bonuses. I get billed to a customer at $200-$400/hr and get maybe $50-$60 of that in total compensation. It's hard to tell, really, because my employers keep getting sold to other companies that proceed to change around the benefits plan. The details aren't very important. Those companies are getting a whole lot of money, and they are giving a smaller proportion of it to the leaf node workers, and a larger share to administration, management, business lubricators, and bureaucracy. The tech industry has very little political-economic clout outside of the handful of cities considered to be tech centers.
I'd love to have an alternative to that, beyond moving my family at least 500 miles away. Again. But that SV money is mostly staying in SV. It isn't going into helping out the industry in the rest of the country, or the rest of the world. It isn't spreading business opportunities to local economies outside of central California and the Pacific NW. SV has done little for me beyond offering me new things to buy. They have not given me the additional local economic activity that I'd need to buy them.
(That's not strictly true. SV has also exported business practices that get cargo-culted everywhere, usually to my detriment.)
I have zero reasons to support the small businesses of Silicon Valley. They can go piss up a tree, because even in a hurricane-force gale blowing directly east, it still won't land anywhere near me. I also won't ever be in a position where I'd actually be able to move there, and it seems the culture has an unnatural aversion to spreading itself somewhere else. So choke on it. SV is competitive with my local tech community, rather than cooperative, so crippling its startups and small businesses helps ours, even at the expense of a smaller overall tech economy. I'm fine with a smaller overall pie, if I get a bigger slice on my plate. I'd only care about bigger pie if there are bigger slices for everyone, not just the ones closest to the ovens.
So by all means, make options and RSUs untenable, and dry up the H1Bs, and let the major players collude with anti-poaching agreements, and let the NIMBYs drive up housing prices. I want Silicon Valley to fail, because in its success, it has been leaving me behind. It will take my money, but won't give it back by spending it in somewhere in my neighborhood. If the only way to claw that back is to vote it out of someone else pocket, so be it.
Edit: Besides that, it's a bit ironic that those working on defense systems like THAAD and Aegis and C-RAM and Iron Dome are largely out of range of North Korean missiles, while the NK propaganda videos depict the atomic destruction of San Francisco and all of its peacetime-tech startups. Pork barrel military-industrial spending might be wasteful, but it does spread the wealth to a lot of people who are otherwise completely ignored by the investment sector.
Re: Don’t Tax Options and RSUs Upon Vesting
#145Earlier quoted context omitted.
Can I give back my options if this bill passes? I'm literally sick now reading this. What I thought was a great part of my compensation package is literally going to bankrupt my family.
Existing grants would be grandfathered in, so giving them back may not make much sense. Future grants, though, should just be killed and you should negotiate for higher pay.
Re: Don’t Tax Options and RSUs Upon Vesting
#146Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don't think this is true anymore. I think this is one of those funny vestigial things that evolved in a different era. If you think of a startup as a true "garage venture" with a few people toiling away trying to ship a product, maybe that's the right model. That isn't really the model for SV entrepreneurship anymore, though, even though we kinda pretend it is. How it works today is, $8 million-dollar "seed" rounds…
That’s simply incorrect. I founded a company that raised a mammoth seed round in Silicon Valley (not $8m but more than $3m), and we do pay some high salaries, but Apple and Facebook still pay salaries that are much, much higher. Critical employees have joined us while taking $100,000/yr pay cuts, despite. Having a salary in the six figures. To think that startups can play that game of “equity doesn’t matter” is just…
Re: Don’t Tax Options and RSUs Upon Vesting
#147The text of the bill specifically says that it is not intended to apply to statutory options (ISOs). From page 123: "However, it is intended that statutory options are not considered nonqualified deferred compensation for purposes of the proposal. An exception is provided for that portion of a plan consisting of a transfer of property described in section 83 (other than nonstatutory stock options), or a trust to whic…
Re: Don’t Tax Options and RSUs Upon Vesting
#148Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yes you can just give them back, but I would be shocked if the bill passed this way. This clause wasn’t in the House version of the bill. Call your senator.
Why would you be shocked? There's all sorts of nasty things in these tax proposals for the less than wealthy. They are looking everywhere they can to find offsets to make the tax cuts for the donor class work under the budget rules.
Re: Don’t Tax Options and RSUs Upon Vesting
#149So we need to split this issue between companies that are public (or otherwise have liquid equity) and those that don't. For the big companies it's pretty easy. They're largely RSU based. Shares are vested/released. Many companies allow full autosale. Easy. Even in the case of selling enough shares to cover withholding your still left with something very liquid. Options in public companies are in basically the same b…
isn't this already a problem for RSU's, where you get taxed at vest time (or on the value at vest time)? Are there startups out there granting illiquid RSU's? seems like a bad fit.
Most companies issuing RSUs are doing so because there is a public market for them and so the release and vest date is the same.
Re: Don’t Tax Options and RSUs Upon Vesting
#150Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm under the belief that vest for tax purposes isn't until the share becomes liquid. If the startup can't exercise then, for tax purposes, has the share vested? I believe it has not (and have, in the past, filed taxes on this belief, with the support of my accountant.)
You're describing how things are now and have missed the point - this bill will mean that you will have to pay tax on vesting.