Live data from Hacker News

A/B test of banner ads vs. traffic

gwern.net

121–130 of 149 posts

Re: A/B test of banner ads vs. traffic

#121
post #97
post #52

> ~60% of visitors have adblock This is much higher than I'd expect. Of course, it is a special kind of site, but still. Can we say a model is in serious trouble yet?

I'm amazed they can even tell. A lot of people who use adblocking also browse as ghost traffic that can't even be analyzed.

Ad blocking means that your browser does not send HTTP requests for items that match the profile of ads and tracking beacons. A website can detect this by creating a local asset linked to from the HTML that is never rendered, but which looks like an ad from the ad blocker's perspective. If a browser loads your page, but subsequently won't load that dummy asset, it is probably using an ad blocker.

Re: A/B test of banner ads vs. traffic

#122
post #44

What I learned from running hundreds of forums is that: 1. Banners hurt unless they are relevant 2. Filtering for banners that are relevant tends to reduce revenue rather than increase as there is a smaller pool of highly relevant advertisers 3. Removing all banner adverts significantly increased engagement by every metric 4. Some revenue is possible using affiliate links within the content (re-writing existing links…

Thanks for sharing. I really wish there was a general web subscription with revenue-sharing between all visited websites. I hate seeing the ads on my own sites but have no viable way to replace them. And as a user I would like to support several sites, apart from disabling the adblocker.

There's Google Contributor, which is trying to make another comeback. One of the newspapers in Australia is using it, and supposedly Business Insider as well.

https://contributor.google.com/

Re: A/B test of banner ads vs. traffic

#123
post #44

What I learned from running hundreds of forums is that: 1. Banners hurt unless they are relevant 2. Filtering for banners that are relevant tends to reduce revenue rather than increase as there is a smaller pool of highly relevant advertisers 3. Removing all banner adverts significantly increased engagement by every metric 4. Some revenue is possible using affiliate links within the content (re-writing existing links…

How do you have experience running hundreds of forums? :O

I've been running forums since 1996 using almost every major forum software that has existed. I'm currently running my own software (which we tried and failed to commercialise), and the largest forum I run is https://www.lfgss.com/ with 250k monthly unique visitors, but the long tail is very long.

We actually now survive more on donations from forum users than any advertising. About 2/3 revenue is donations, 1/3 from affiliates.

Affiliates work really well, but the rise of cash back sites mean that the revenue per sale is dropping. Affiliates work well for delivering new customers, but cash back is leading to retailers paying out for retaining customers which means the cost is shifting from acquisition to retention, which is traditionally where they make their profit. Hence cash back is leading retailers to make the terms far more strict, shorter cookie periods, lower %, etc.

Donations have been the saviour. As I'm running the sites as a platform, the larger sites effectively subsidise the young and growing sites.

Also, as a platform: 1 volunteer (me) runs all of the sites. Moderation is by communities, and has proven very effective whilst not requiring any additional cost. Though I did invest in some good lawyers for the T&Cs to make sure that approach kept the platform free of liability from individual sites on the platform.

Re: A/B test of banner ads vs. traffic

#124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It wouldn't work anyway. To make up for the advertising revenue, that subscription would have to be in excess of $100/month per household, and you'd need to get virtually every household in wealthy nations to buy into it. The amount of marketing money spent each year is on the order of 10-11% of all revenue made by companies selling consumer goods... you can't replace that with some $10/month subscription even if eve…

That sounds like a content tax. And is probably precisely how this should work, indexed to wealth / income.

How do you then decide who gets paid to make content?

Re: A/B test of banner ads vs. traffic

#125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That sounds like a content tax. And is probably precisely how this should work, indexed to wealth / income.

How do you then decide who gets paid to make content?

A fair question, and I don't know that I've got the answer, though several answer-shaped possibilities suggest themselves.

One line of thinking has a Neilsen or Arbitron-like rating system that pays based on readership. I think that is ultimately a false lead as it simply rewards popularity.

Another is to employ a basic income approach. Given the number of writers I know who write largely because they can't not, this might work, though it might not be fully sufficient. The prospect of a UBI and some achievements-based revenue might make this more viable: electronic distruibution is gratis, but live performances and physical media might generate additional revenue, as might various services or other arrangements, all on top of a UBI base.

A third way might be to treat creation something like research: it's an activity, and it's funded as a certain overall percent of national income. Divide that by what's seen as a livable wage, and designate that there are so many positions open, and so many to be filled in a given year, that will be paid. Sorting out how to filter out those who really aren't suited to it is the next challenge, though there are various models: guilds, professional recognition (see the Emmy's, Grammy's, Oscars, Pulizter, Peabody, Nobel, Royal Society, AAS, and similar recognitions).

One thing I don't think should happen is for there to be some sort of quarterly or annual "rank and yank", or the general fight over scientific grants funding we now have. There's an article I'd recently seen about productivity of scientists over their careers, and the distribution is ... almost perfectly random. That is, a given scientist might produce some great work early, late, or in the middle of their career, once only or possibly several times. But there's not much rhyme or reason to it.

Creative work generally is something that evolves over time, and takes time. Days, weeks, or months even for a good piece of journalism. Years for a story, play, or film. A lifetime for works of science or philosophy. Take Wittgenstein, who wrote one book and then spent the rest of his life writing another refuting the first.

(And yes, there are prolific examples as well, though often they are best known only for a handful of works. Attention is a zero-sum game. Alexandre Dumas. Isaac Asimov. There's a large literature on Gresham's Law effects in literature, painting, music, drama, and television as well.)

The inputs to writing are information, sources, and investigations. Otherwise, generally, a quite space and not having to worry too much about room, board, heat, water, and light. Excessive remuneration doesn't much seem to help in its production, and a certain frisson may actually help, but only to a point.

Re: A/B test of banner ads vs. traffic

#126
post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They probably determined your page-relevant term was just getting in the way of their killer machine-learning tuned strategy of showing ads for the last thing the user happened to look at.

If it was a banner of products related to previous purchases, okay, I can see that. But the banner was just a generic "Shop at Amazon!" Lame.

Do you use Ghostery or other “do not track” tools? It’s possible your users were seeing something different

Re: A/B test of banner ads vs. traffic

#128
post #58
post #8

He seems to not show how the ads looked like on his page. He seems to only attribute it to load time. But maybe the ads were visually annoying? Why no screenshots?

I am yet to see any ad setup that guarantees they are not visually annoying. Most (reputable) ad networks guarantee they filter ads and remove the evil ones. I haven't seen one that delivered. I do not see how they could - manual review of each ad is not scalable and advertisers would not abide by it, they'd just move to network with less stringent rules.

I believe Project Wonderful is the closest thing I know - it's a manually-reviewed ad network used for webcomics, with the downside that it's accordingly much less valuable for site owners.

Re: A/B test of banner ads vs. traffic

#129
post #63

There are ways to have comments that are a lot less awful than Disqus.

I don't like Disqus mostly because the UX is clunky. Are there other things people dislike about it?

This is UX-ish, but I regularly have login/posting issues and very slow loading times off Disqus.

Re: A/B test of banner ads vs. traffic

#130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for sharing. I really wish there was a general web subscription with revenue-sharing between all visited websites. I hate seeing the ads on my own sites but have no viable way to replace them. And as a user I would like to support several sites, apart from disabling the adblocker.

There's Google Contributor, which is trying to make another comeback. One of the newspapers in Australia is using it, and supposedly Business Insider as well. https://contributor.google.com/

I've looked at Contributor and found it weirdly limited. Google doesn't need publishers to sign up for Contributor, because they are already all signed up for AdSense! The most logical way to implement Contributor would be essentially as a personal buyout of AdSense ads: if you are a Contributor, the AdSense JS checks that and then simply doesn't run, and assigns a fraction of a cent to the publisher in lieu of a displayed ad. Everyone gets what they want and this immediately gets you coverage of millions of websites instead of, like, 10.
Post reply on HN