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An ARM killer from IIT-M?

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Re: An ARM killer from IIT-M?

#41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Resisting mass immigration to leach from your welfare state is not xenophobic.

Resisting immigration of a particular demographic, one that arguably contributes most to the coffers of the said welfare state, is well within epistemological domain of the word 'xenophobia'.

you're talking about the US

I'm responding to

> the recent wave of xenophobia worldwide

The costs of the refugee crisis

The German government will have to spend 50 billion euros on refugees during this year and next, a new study estimates. In order to balance these costs, researchers urge financial restraint elsewhere.

http://www.dw.com/en/the-costs-of-the-refugee-crisis/a-19016...

Re: An ARM killer from IIT-M?

#42

It's definitely to be welcomed, but India barely has the kind of interests, state-apparatus or companies that'd want something like this to succeed. India neither has Baidu, nor Tencent, nor Wechat. They have Flipkart, which is barely an Alibaba, and is on a long drawn collision course towards merging with Amazon. The startups I've seen generally seem to target foreign markets, or to service people who service foreig…

With luck, Trump, the tightening H-1B/GC situation and the recent wave of xenophobia worldwide will push some talented people who would've otherwise left to stay in India. Modi has also pushed to make starting a business a quick process w.r.t paperwork.

yes, most Americans don't realise just how many Indian people work building chips there - IIT and its ilk train more than 25% of the chip designers in the US (my rough guess from working in the industry) ... if Trump chases them all home and they go on to build great things, as I'm sure they will, Trump may be responsible for destroying the US semiconductor industry single handedly

Re: An ARM killer from IIT-M?

#43

To be honest though building a processor these days is not exactly difficult. That is especially true if you start with someone else's ISA and they have already created a GCC or LLVM back end for it. I was at Sun during the development of SPARC and as part of the Systems group we got to see a lot of the trade offs up front but these days transistors are not nearly so scarce. If you stick to 30 - 50Mhz for your first…

That is simply not true. Building a CPU can be "easy" if you want to build something that works. If you want to build something that is power efficient and, at the same time, quite performant, then the complexity of the problem escalates very quickly. Sticking at 30-50 MHz? What is this even supposed to mean? Digital hardware design hardly takes clock speeds into consideration, except during physical implementation i…

I'm not sure why pedroaraujo is being downvoted other than in response to his criticism of HN topcommenter Chuck McManis. Pedro is correct; toy CPUs , like what Chuck mentioned building, are so trivial that undergraduate students can build functioning models of them in a few days or hours. They are quite literally thousands of times less complex than the CPUs (even RISC arches) that are discussed in the article.

I also concur with Pedro on the clock speed part - clock speed has absolutely nothing to do with your hardware design until you have written all the HDL, simulated its behavioral characteristics, actually synthesized the logic, completed the analog and I/O components of the design, and are actually preparing for tapeout. There's a reason only AMD and Intel make large CPUs for the consumer market, and it's not because college students are too busy.

I'm going to fade into the grey background for this, but ChuckMcM's comment is yet another disappointing step toward the total calcification of this forum. It's not a commentary on the article; it simply states, lazily, and ignorantly, that whatever it is they're attempting at IIT-M, it can't be too hard. What an an incredibly condescending and blasé thing to say, especially on a public forum where what you say can't be erased.

I'm actually quite glad to see another implementation of RISC-V from outside the US. The horde of nearly identical ARM cores on the market is terribly uninspiring.

Re: An ARM killer from IIT-M?

#44

To be honest though building a processor these days is not exactly difficult. That is especially true if you start with someone else's ISA and they have already created a GCC or LLVM back end for it. I was at Sun during the development of SPARC and as part of the Systems group we got to see a lot of the trade offs up front but these days transistors are not nearly so scarce. If you stick to 30 - 50Mhz for your first…

Also, MIPS, founded by the original RISC paper guys. Thirty years ago DEC was selling DECstations with MIPS R3000 CPUs, where you could enjoy the occasional program crash (and "core dump") due to memory alignment errors, under BSD 4.3 or so.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIPS_architecture_processors

Re: An ARM killer from IIT-M?

#45
post #28
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amd29000. Moto88000. And DEC alpha. But this is long due for India. Recall that the US semiconductor industry did have plenty of govt help at its inception. The Indian govt can similarly provide early support by being a customer. But still, it is going to be a tough row to hoe.

> And DEC alpha. I really wish all these "open source" chips would just steal the DEC Alpha microarchitecture and implement it. It's been almost 20 years--even the patents on EV7 should have run out by now. It was a really clean, mostly orthogonal microarchitecture that had most of the really annoying implementation corners filed down. EV5 is a very straightforward chip and maps very well to low power implementations…

That's what some people were doing with SuperH; I don't know how the project has progressed.

https://lwn.net/Articles/647636/

[If you wanted to resurrect the Alpha, though, please do not resurrect the crazy memory consistency semantics, where you need to put a full memory barrier between

    r0 = load(&x);
    r1 = load(r0);

Re: An ARM killer from IIT-M?

#46
post #28
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amd29000. Moto88000. And DEC alpha. But this is long due for India. Recall that the US semiconductor industry did have plenty of govt help at its inception. The Indian govt can similarly provide early support by being a customer. But still, it is going to be a tough row to hoe.

> And DEC alpha. I really wish all these "open source" chips would just steal the DEC Alpha microarchitecture and implement it. It's been almost 20 years--even the patents on EV7 should have run out by now. It was a really clean, mostly orthogonal microarchitecture that had most of the really annoying implementation corners filed down. EV5 is a very straightforward chip and maps very well to low power implementations…

IIRC one of those homegrown Chinese HPC chips were rumored to more or less use the Alpha ISA.

That being said, I wonder if at this point all the low level software (kernels, toolchains etc.) have bitrotted to the point that you're not buying much, if anything, compared to using RISC-V.

And it's not like Alpha doesn't have those irritating ISA idiosyncrasies. E.g. the most crazily relaxed memory model known to man. No byte load/store until, uh, EV56(?). And it's big endian, which per se isn't wrong in any way, you'll just be dealing with endian bugs forever and ever when porting since the rest of the computing universe, for better or worse, has converged on little endian (x86, ARM, even Linux on OpenPOWER)

Re: An ARM killer from IIT-M?

#47

As the lead architect of Shakti and the guy who helped kick-start the project, I figure I am owed my 2 cents ! 1. We never positioned it as an ARM killer ! That was the imagination of the reporter who wrote the article. 2. Shakti is not a state only project. Parts of Shakti are funded by the govt, these relate to cores and SoCs needed by the Govt. The defense and strategic sector procurement is huge, runs in the 10s…

This looks very interesting. Its high time an Indian institution has some framework for designing semiconductor chips from scratch and perhaps even mass manufacture them for selling them to the rest of the world.

My question is about Bluespec SV and the random logic synthesis of the written code. Is it good enough for good power consumption figures or is that not really a concern at this point? Do you know how its reception has been in industries in the last 4-5 years? Is it still the 'technology of the future'?

Another question I have is, this project being open source, are you seeing contributions from other educational institutions or industries? What would be needed get more institutions involved?

Re: An ARM killer from IIT-M?

#48
post #38
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do Baidu and Tencent count, but Infosys and TCS not count? Each of these have companies with >10B USD of revenue, so it's not like the Chinese companies are any larger. And don't tell me, it's because of the difference between product and service companies, because that is meaningless distinction from the perspective of a hardware-marker. They all need hardware to run on and arguably a service company needs more.…

> Why do Baidu and Tencent count, but Infosys and TCS not count? Each of these have companies with >10B USD of revenue... umm, probably because both of these companies are not exactly known for their cutting edge r&d.

Even these people didn't claim they have cutting edge r&d. IITM has implemented that is already open source and continuing their work in open source

Re: An ARM killer from IIT-M?

#50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is simply not true. Building a CPU can be "easy" if you want to build something that works. If you want to build something that is power efficient and, at the same time, quite performant, then the complexity of the problem escalates very quickly. Sticking at 30-50 MHz? What is this even supposed to mean? Digital hardware design hardly takes clock speeds into consideration, except during physical implementation i…

I'm not sure why pedroaraujo is being downvoted other than in response to his criticism of HN topcommenter Chuck McManis. Pedro is correct; toy CPUs , like what Chuck mentioned building, are so trivial that undergraduate students can build functioning models of them in a few days or hours. They are quite literally thousands of times less complex than the CPUs (even RISC arches) that are discussed in the article. I al…

It seems both of you haven't read the article itself. The new CPU design is not about high-end CPU you expect from Intel or AMD. It is about CPUs for the IoT. We are talking about Cortex-M alike CPUs you find in micro-controllers from Infineon, NXP, Renesas, and alike. BTW there is competition to the ARM design. It is the micro-controllers from NXP former Freescale, which have their own CPU design heavily used in automotive.
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