Live data from Hacker News

Jōyō kanji variants: The curious case of 叱 and 𠮟 (2016)

namakajiri.net

81–90 of 153 posts

Re: Jōyō kanji variants: The curious case of 叱 and 𠮟 (2016)

#81

I'm often surprised these kinds of issues aren't fixed quicker. There are so many issues in browsers related to non Roman based letters (assuming that's the correct term for it) on the one hand I get that most browser (and OS?) dev happens in the West by people unaffected by these issues. One the other hand with > 1 billion people using non Roman based languages I'd expect this kind of stuff to be more of a priority.…

[deleted]

Re: Jōyō kanji variants: The curious case of 叱 and 𠮟 (2016)

#82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe they should just romanize (switch to Latin script) the way Vietnam did.

It’s hard to do in Japanese due to all the homonyms. Kanji gives meaning where romanizations would not.

This hits you hard when you read children's books for the first time as an adult.

Re: Jōyō kanji variants: The curious case of 叱 and 𠮟 (2016)

#83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Installing the free hanazono fonts should sort you out For arch: pacman -S ttf-hanazono

Interesting. Installed hanazono font HanaMinPlus.ttf in Firefox as J-default and even in this comment section the distinction between katakana 'n' and 'so' is quite clear whereas using MS Gothic it's somewhat ambiguous. Even more so when the two fonts are juxtaposed in LibreOffice.

You might want to look at some Kyokasho-tai typefaces; they should be pretty close to how we are taught to write.

Re: Jōyō kanji variants: The curious case of 叱 and 𠮟 (2016)

#84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe they should just romanize (switch to Latin script) the way Vietnam did.

It’s hard to do in Japanese due to all the homonyms. Kanji gives meaning where romanizations would not.

Early video games didn't have enough resolution to display Kanji, which is why all text was Kana-only. With spaces as word separators and sentence context homonyms are no more of a problem than in other languages.

Re: Jōyō kanji variants: The curious case of 叱 and 𠮟 (2016)

#85

I wish more handwritten kanji input systems would use stroke order and count as a weight and not a filter. As a learner is generally know the stroke order when looking at an unknown kanji but as most input method filter on order and count a single wrong order or count means the matching kanji doesn't even show up in the list of possible matches

All the proprietary systems do that. For some reason, proprietary Chinese handwritten input systems are more widely available than Japanese.

macOS and ios are good examples. Ships with a good one for Chinese and nothing for japanese. If you buy a Sony android phone you'll get a good handwritten Japanese input out-of-the-box.

The reason is because basic stroke order information is freely available, but you need much more information to build a good system (you need common abbreviations and mistakes, fx)

Re: Jōyō kanji variants: The curious case of 叱 and 𠮟 (2016)

#86
post #27

> Can you spot the difference between 𠮟 and 叱? Me neither. Of course I can, not because I am Chinese, but they really do look different. How can you NOT see the difference? Also they have different meanings. Edit: Here is one that’s really hard to recognize especially in handwritings and often written wrong if not careful. 已 vs 己 This puzzles many Chinese people... Can you spot the difference? 已 has to do with time…

Chinese has a lot of tricky ones. 荼 vs 茶 日 vs 曰 已 vs 己 vs 巳 vs 巴 士 vs 土 水 vs 氺 人 vs 入 vs 八 vs 几 干 vs 千 vs 于 天 vs 夫 ... the list goes on.

>> 荼 vs 茶

Also 苶 looks similar.

Re: Jōyō kanji variants: The curious case of 叱 and 𠮟 (2016)

#87
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The question is if you would recognize the difference if they weren’t side by side. I am trying to teach myself Japanese, which allegedly is easier than Chinese. Hiragana as far as I can tell makes no internal sense. The characters for yo and ya don’t incorporate elements from o or a. And when you are done eh Hiragana you realize that it is on its own not enough to actually communicate in Japanese, so now in addition…

> I am trying to teach myself Japanese, which allegedly is easier than Chinese. Who did you hear that from? The Japanese writing system is the Chinese one, minus all of the internal consistency, plus lots of characters the Chinese aren't traditional enough to keep in the language. It often uses the same character to write distinct Chinese loanwords which differ wildly in pronunciation based on when and from whom the…

If you know English, the loanwords become immediately accesible. Also Japanese dictionaries could be easier to check, since you just need to know the pronunciation.

Your conception on the writing systems is quite weird, consistency (if any) is the same, I would say. I do not get what you mean by characters being "traditional" or not.

Chinese loanwords are more garbled, with different methods of assigning them random chinese characters. And the Japanese use Latin characters to mark pronunciations also, minus the tone markings. (Let me introduce you to -- bopomofo)

Re: Jōyō kanji variants: The curious case of 叱 and 𠮟 (2016)

#88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The question is if you would recognize the difference if they weren’t side by side. I am trying to teach myself Japanese, which allegedly is easier than Chinese. Hiragana as far as I can tell makes no internal sense. The characters for yo and ya don’t incorporate elements from o or a. And when you are done eh Hiragana you realize that it is on its own not enough to actually communicate in Japanese, so now in addition…

There are many things about Chinese which are very easy, in particular the grammar and the fact that many words are constructed by logical combinations of smaller semantic units. There's nothing easy about Japanese IMO, it has extremely complex grammar with standard and non-standard inflections, it uses a mix of two different alphabets and Chinese characters, and the Chinese characters often have multiple different r…

The Japanese grammar is way more consistent (almost without exceptions) then all western languages. And in Chinese you get multiple pronunciations for the same character all the time!

Re: Jōyō kanji variants: The curious case of 叱 and 𠮟 (2016)

#89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't read any of these characters but to me the difference between 已 vs 己 is as clear and obvious as the difference between 𠮟 vs 叱

I think yeukhon means that if you get lazy and write 已 or 己 with a single stroke (easy to do with a ball-point pen), they are basically indistinguishable.

No educated Chinese-writer will write those in a single stroke AFAIK

Re: Jōyō kanji variants: The curious case of 叱 and 𠮟 (2016)

#90
post #27

> Can you spot the difference between 𠮟 and 叱? Me neither. Of course I can, not because I am Chinese, but they really do look different. How can you NOT see the difference? Also they have different meanings. Edit: Here is one that’s really hard to recognize especially in handwritings and often written wrong if not careful. 已 vs 己 This puzzles many Chinese people... Can you spot the difference? 已 has to do with time…

> > Can you spot the difference between 𠮟 and 叱? Me neither. > Of course I can, not because I am Chinese, but they really do look different. How can you NOT see the difference? Also they have different meanings The difference at my resolution is about 10-15 pixels, this seems like much less than the difference between one font and another. But then of course I don't have any knowledge about Hanzi. Is the difference…

They were originally drawn with brushes, and the stroke direction was obvious. In handwriting, you're also supposed to use the same stroke order and direction. A font doesn't have that, so some fonts use differences in shape and thickness of the line to indicate the stroke direction.

So I'd say that the difference is mostly how your font chose to indicate the proper stroke direction.

Post reply on HN