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How Julian Jaynes’ consciousness theory is faring in the neuroscience age (2015)

nautil.us

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Re: How Julian Jaynes’ consciousness theory is faring in the neuroscience age (2015)

#31

Post by psyc »

nabla9 wrote: post #12

Wacky and entertaining idea. The theory rests on another idea that many people assume is obviously true without ever thinking twice. It's the notion that verbal thought and verbal thinking is required and fundamental part of consciousness and self awareness. When I started to read about the philosophy of consciousness, it became obvious that most people experience their own consciousness differently than I do. Their…

I'm right there with you. Always find it weird that people associate language so strongly with intelligence, and consciousness. First, I'm conscious when I'm aware of anything. I don't have to be thinking. Second, my thinking is 99% non-verbal except when I'm communicating to another person or imagining doing so, and even then it's only partly verbal. Almost all of my thinking is in moving or rotating 3D spaces and objects.

Re: How Julian Jaynes’ consciousness theory is faring in the neuroscience age (2015)

#32

Post by mabbo »

nabla9 wrote: post #12

Wacky and entertaining idea. The theory rests on another idea that many people assume is obviously true without ever thinking twice. It's the notion that verbal thought and verbal thinking is required and fundamental part of consciousness and self awareness. When I started to read about the philosophy of consciousness, it became obvious that most people experience their own consciousness differently than I do. Their…

I generally think verbally. Then I started learning American Sign Language. For the 3 years I was actively using it, I thought differently, more with ideas than words. It was fascinating both in the change, and the fact that I've changed back.

Re: How Julian Jaynes’ consciousness theory is faring in the neuroscience age (2015)

#34

Post by alsetmusic »

nabla9 wrote: post #26
rusk wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have always had trouble understanding why people link verbal thinking and consciousness I came across the same conundrum when I was studying psychology. It all came down to the medium becoming the message. Language is the prime means through which we convey experience. Of course there are other means visual, spacial but when you're "studying consciousness" you're typically reading books. Serious treatise in the a…

I had interesting discussion about logical thinking once. My fried claimed that it's impossible to think logically (btw. etymology of word logic is "word" or "what is spoken") without verbally running the the words and sentences in your head. Then I explained that I have always used logic visuospatially. "and" is choice between places or fork in the road, "or" is combining two objects in the same place and so on. Con…

> My fried claimed that it's impossible to think logically (btw. etymology of word logic is "word" or "what is spoken") without verbally running the the words and sentences in your head.

In this case, would numbers represent “words” in the language of mathematics? When I was younger and sharper, I used to see products of numbers physically manifest in my mind. This is a form of logic, but it also required an “alphabet” of sorts.

As an aside, I once saw an interview with a mathematical genius of sorts who stated that he associated numbers with colors. He saw the product of two numbers as a third color. Again, logic without traditional language.

Re: How Julian Jaynes’ consciousness theory is faring in the neuroscience age (2015)

#35

Post by nikki93 »

nabla9 wrote: post #12

Wacky and entertaining idea. The theory rests on another idea that many people assume is obviously true without ever thinking twice. It's the notion that verbal thought and verbal thinking is required and fundamental part of consciousness and self awareness. When I started to read about the philosophy of consciousness, it became obvious that most people experience their own consciousness differently than I do. Their…

But whatever that information space is could be called a language too, right?

Re: How Julian Jaynes’ consciousness theory is faring in the neuroscience age (2015)

#36

Post by davidgay »

nabla9 wrote: post #12

Wacky and entertaining idea. The theory rests on another idea that many people assume is obviously true without ever thinking twice. It's the notion that verbal thought and verbal thinking is required and fundamental part of consciousness and self awareness. When I started to read about the philosophy of consciousness, it became obvious that most people experience their own consciousness differently than I do. Their…

On this front, and to stray closer to a topic many of us spend too much time on, how do you conceptualise programs and their structure (control, data, etc, etc)?

It's clearly formalised in words (except for the occasional visual programming languages/programs), but that's mostly superficial. The actual structure, or thoughts of how to change it seem to me more abstract and often hard to explain other than by combinations of diagrams and code - but those weren't the source of the idea(s).

--> it's not clear to me that programming (which is quite clearly a conscious activity) is reducible to purely verbal or visual thoughts.

Similar comments apply to other intellectual endeavours.

Re: How Julian Jaynes’ consciousness theory is faring in the neuroscience age (2015)

#37

Post by BurningFrog »

nabla9 wrote: post #26
rusk wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have always had trouble understanding why people link verbal thinking and consciousness I came across the same conundrum when I was studying psychology. It all came down to the medium becoming the message. Language is the prime means through which we convey experience. Of course there are other means visual, spacial but when you're "studying consciousness" you're typically reading books. Serious treatise in the a…

I had interesting discussion about logical thinking once. My fried claimed that it's impossible to think logically (btw. etymology of word logic is "word" or "what is spoken") without verbally running the the words and sentences in your head. Then I explained that I have always used logic visuospatially. "and" is choice between places or fork in the road, "or" is combining two objects in the same place and so on. Con…

Different people have different brains.

Your friend was probably right about his/her brain, and you're right about yours.

Re: How Julian Jaynes’ consciousness theory is faring in the neuroscience age (2015)

#38

Post by FrozenVoid »

I think the trigger event for modern consciousness mode is a critical percent of population being literate. It could been happening a few millenia earlier than his book suggests, and shaped the brain around reading the "fixed language"(i.e. written words) allowing abstraction levels not possible with earlier purely verbal communication. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reading_(process)#History The history of reading dates back to the invention of writing during the 4th millennium BC. Although reading print text is now an important way for the general population to access information, this has not always been the case. With some exceptions, only a small percentage of the population in many countries was considered literate before the Industrial Revolution. Some of the pre-modern societies with generally high literacy rates included classical Athens and the Islamic Caliphate.[41]

Scholars assume that reading aloud (Latin clare legere) was the more common practice in antiquity, and that reading silently (legere tacite or legere sibi) was unusual.[42] In his Confessions, Saint Augustine remarks on Saint Ambrose's unusual habit of reading silently in the 4th century AD.[42][43]

Re: How Julian Jaynes’ consciousness theory is faring in the neuroscience age (2015)

#39

Post by majos »

mabbo wrote: post #32
nabla9 wrote: post #12

Wacky and entertaining idea. The theory rests on another idea that many people assume is obviously true without ever thinking twice. It's the notion that verbal thought and verbal thinking is required and fundamental part of consciousness and self awareness. When I started to read about the philosophy of consciousness, it became obvious that most people experience their own consciousness differently than I do. Their…

I generally think verbally. Then I started learning American Sign Language. For the 3 years I was actively using it, I thought differently, more with ideas than words. It was fascinating both in the change, and the fact that I've changed back.

I'm looking to learn ASL. Any recommended resources?
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