How Julian Jaynes’ consciousness theory is faring in the neuroscience age (2015)
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Re: How Julian Jaynes’ consciousness theory is faring in the neuroscience age (2015)
#2From 2015.
Re: How Julian Jaynes’ consciousness theory is faring in the neuroscience age (2015)
#3From 2015.
And it's really hard to verify what people heard in the past. “Our kings, presidents, judges, and officers begin their tenures with oaths to the now-silent deities, taken upon the writings of those who have last heard them.” How do we know that they weren't just doing poetry or fiction, or creating religion to control the masses?
Re: How Julian Jaynes’ consciousness theory is faring in the neuroscience age (2015)
#4“O, what a world of unseen visions and heard silences, this insubstantial country of the mind!
A secret theater of speechless monologue and prevenient counsel, an invisible mansion of all moods, musings, and mysteries, an infinite resort of disappointments and discoveries.”
If you’re intrigued reading the article, or have had the book on your ‘todo’ for years now I’d really encourage you to just go get a copy and take it on. It provides a wealth of food for thought - a lovely example of a theory that in all likelihood is in its details totally wrong, but enriches the reader regardless.
Re: How Julian Jaynes’ consciousness theory is faring in the neuroscience age (2015)
#5A lot of people discount Jayne's theory for the inaccuracy regarding its assertions about the physical mechanisms, namely that specific modules in one half of the brain talk across the corpus callosum to specific modules in the other half. But IMO they're throwing the baby out with the bathwater. What I haven't seen yet are investigations into the nature of self-awareness and agency assuming that his theory holds water on the mental aspects. Studies have shown that we make decisions whole seconds before we are conscious of our coming to a conclusion. Could this not be some remnant of the potential fact that our internal decision processes are based around a similar mechanism as what he proposes? The only difference is that we think that "voice" telling us what to do is ourselves, and not some imposition from outside.
Re: How Julian Jaynes’ consciousness theory is faring in the neuroscience age (2015)
#6Any useful theory of consciousness has to be able to explain animal consciousness too. Language is really the only differentiator between us and other primates, cognitively. (naturally it's a powerful difference) Primates far and away clear the bar for sentience, we know enough about dogs and cats to grudgingly accept them into the fold too. Plenty of birds are extremely intelligent and social as well.
Re: How Julian Jaynes’ consciousness theory is faring in the neuroscience age (2015)
#7Crucially, Jayne's definition of "consciousness" is basically introspection. If you replace the word "consciousness" with "introspection", all the controversy evaporates and the story becomes (only mildly) interesting.
> Jaynes ... decides to read early texts, including The Iliad and The Odyssey, to look for signs of people who aren’t capable of introspection—people who are all sea, no rime. And he believes he sees that in The Iliad. He writes that the characters in The Iliad do not look inward, and they take no independent initiative.
Suitcase words like "consciousness" are tricky to work with.
Re: How Julian Jaynes’ consciousness theory is faring in the neuroscience age (2015)
#8For those interested in thoughts about consciousness, I highly recommend Bernardo Kastrup.
He comes from a comp sci background but has several books and very well structured arguments for Idealism. His manner of delivering his insights I think particularly appeal to those with analytical and critical thinking backgrounds.
He has several very good videos on YouTube as well.
https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/4552692.Bernardo_Kastr...
Re: How Julian Jaynes’ consciousness theory is faring in the neuroscience age (2015)
#9previous discussion
Re: How Julian Jaynes’ consciousness theory is faring in the neuroscience age (2015)
#10From 2015.
And it's really hard to verify what people heard in the past. “Our kings, presidents, judges, and officers begin their tenures with oaths to the now-silent deities, taken upon the writings of those who have last heard them.” How do we know that they weren't just doing poetry or fiction, or creating religion to control the masses?
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