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As epidemic rages, ER study finds opioids no better than Advil and Tylenol

arstechnica.com

151–160 of 161 posts

Re: As epidemic rages, ER study finds opioids no better than Advil and Tylenol

#151

This is a highly misleading presentation of the study. The study compared the following doses: — 400 mg ibuprofen and 1,000 mg acetaminophen — 5 mg oxycodone and 325 mg acetaminophen — 5 mg hydrocodone and 300 mg acetaminophen; or — 30 mg codeine and 300 mg acetaminophen https://media.jamanetwork.com/news-item/no-significant-diffe... So, the study is comparing high doses of ibuprofen/acetaminophen to low doses on opi…

I dare them to repeat the study with metastatic cancer patients. I'll give them three days before the IRB cancels everything.

Re: As epidemic rages, ER study finds opioids no better than Advil and Tylenol

#153

Of course while YMMV, I've found the same thing - I've been prescribed opioids for pain, and I found that Advil worked just as well, without the side effects. I do understand that opioids have their place - for example I was told that Advil was not safe to take before surgery so I was stuck with the prescription meds. On example that made an impression on me: a couple of years ago, I had arthroscopic surgery on a kne…

NSAIDS are not benign. Digestive problems are so common with long-term use that some doctors think that they should co-prescribed with omeprazole and other agents to head them off. (Long-term omepraloze will give you B-12 deficiency if you don't supplement; it is an unusual side effect, but I can't sleep if I take omeprazole. Cardiovascular risk from Vioxx was enough to pull the drug from the market; risk is also see…

> My doc does not want me taking acetaminophen because she thinks it causes me to get elevated liver enzymes

An uncle and some other older physicians who are on long-term measured acetaminophen usage reported supplementing their regimen with n-acetyl cysteine (NAC) with no apparent diminution in analgesic effect. WebMD has a description of the chemical mechanism:

https://www.webmd.com/vitamins-supplements/ingredientmono-10...

As an aside it's also the primary antitoxin for the treatment of acetaminophen poisoning in veterinary medicine:

http://orrongpharmacy.com/content/s_vet/vet_poisoning.htm

So it might be useful to bring this possibility up with your personal physician.

Re: As epidemic rages, ER study finds opioids no better than Advil and Tylenol

#154
post #115
post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It might have once been expensive ("Imitrex" (R)(TM)) but there is a generic now. I understand there are also non-pill delivery systems, like nasal or patches, and other permutations that may still be under patent. The pills seem to work for me.

Triptans work for me as well, but they’re too hard on my body. It’s aftually pretty scary how they work.

Can I ask what side effects it is you get? Just curious since there don't appear to be any negative effects at all for me.

Re: As epidemic rages, ER study finds opioids no better than Advil and Tylenol

#155

Well lets take some of these folks and give them a herniated disk like I had. Advil? Tylenol? Sure - like Skittles. Even high doses of Hydrocodone only kept the debilitating pain away for a couple of hours. I only slept 3 hours a night for 2 month. My neurosurgeon said - "When you've reached your pain limit call me and we'll schedule surgery". That was 2 months. I'm very grateful for both the narcotics and the neuros…

There’s no worse pain than passing a kidney stone. Ibuprofen + acetaminophen works better than anything I’ve ever been prescribed. If it hasn’t worked for you, you might not have taken enough. Ask your doctor about the dosage. It’s safe to take more than what is recommended on the bottle.

Re: As epidemic rages, ER study finds opioids no better than Advil and Tylenol

#156
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not the case when you suffer major 3rd degree burns. When you need morphine in the case of say regrowing nerve endings in a damanged limb advil will not cut it, not even medical cannabis will cut it, there are still cases where giving a patient morphine is appropriate.

The discussion around opiate abuse isn't about the extreme cases. Yes, if I get 3rd degree burns then I want to be as out of it as possible until the pain goes away. The problem isn't the extreme cases, it's the every day ones. Opiates are being massively over-prescribed in cases where OTC medicine or a shot of whiskey would suffice, and this over-prescription is a driving force behind the addiction epidemic.

Like that time I was given two weeks of Vicodin for a scrape on my elbow.

Re: As epidemic rages, ER study finds opioids no better than Advil and Tylenol

#157
post #51

I broke my arm a decade or so ago. The doctor wasn't able to set my bone without relaxing my extremely tight muscles. Morphine worked great for that. I sincerely doubt that an NSAID could have done this, or even something like a Soma (Carisoprodol).

Same thing happened when I dislocated my shoulder last year. No NSAID could have done what that morphine did. They tried for about 10min to do it without the morphine but it was just simply not happening. After the morphine they actually had to put my shoulder back in twice since it popped right back out after the first attempt.

Re: As epidemic rages, ER study finds opioids no better than Advil and Tylenol

#158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anecdotal, but I can't imagine living a normal life while regularly using though--even if regular is just a couple days a week. It's legal where I live and the handful of times I have used during the week, I can't remember what I did the day before as well, or what my tasks for the day are. My performance at work noticeably degrades. I'm also more tired the day after, despite generally getting more sleep. It's great…

I'm curious what makes it great for the weekend for you. Not being able to remember what your goals for the day are or remember what you did the day before doesn't sound great, even if it is the weekend.

I suppose I was thinking in terms of the alternative being alcohol. If I were going to choose between a night out drinking, or a night out having smoked a bit, I'd go for the latter. I'd rather feel a bit hazy the next day than be sick to my stomach or have a headache--which I get even just from ~3 beers over a few hours. I could of course opt for neither, but social norms being what they are.. there's some pressure there but that's a separate issue.

That being said, I may have exaggerated the memory issues. It isn't like full blown amnesia. More so it just takes longer than usual to remember things. I'd compare it to a cache miss. Smoking clears my brain's cache the next day and I end up feeling like I am pulling short-term thoughts and memories from colder storage.

Re: As epidemic rages, ER study finds opioids no better than Advil and Tylenol

#159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same here. After a LONGGG phone call cradling the receiver while trying to type, etc., I had my neck spasm severely -- so much so that the following day someone else had to drive me to urgent care (1). They prescribed a strong muscle relaxant in combination with either Percocet or Vicadin -- I forget which. I switched over to the default over the counter dose of ibuprofen, and it worked better than the combination of…

pasbesoin says> " They prescribed a strong muscle relaxant in combination with either Percocet or Vicadin -- I forget which. I switched over to the default over the counter dose of ibuprofen, and it worked better than the combination of those two "heavy duty" prescription drugs." Had you continued the muscle relaxant (the problem was an involuntary muscle spasm), you possibly could have avoided further treatment (the…

Thanks for that perspective.

I was on the muscle relaxant for a full day, and I was no better. Any time I moved, I was retriggering the spasm.

The neck brace stopped that. I still had to be careful, but at least I could walk around and sit and such without constantly re-spasming (which I suspect was actually exacerbating the injury).

I do agree in concept with the concern about combining such an injury / muscle relaxant with strong pain killers. The pain is warning you as to damage; numbing it seems like it might well promote furthering that damage and/or hindering healing.

In my case, once I was braced and stopped retrigging -- and possibly worsening -- the spasming, the remaining pain was entirely tolerable. Of course, the limited effective activity was another aspect requiring coping. That included sleeping: Getting into bed, and keeping things immobilized in bed, was a bit of effort. I learned how to sleep with a neck brace on, and I "trained" myself quickly not to roll from side to side -- despite my allergies that promote frequent shifting.

Re: As epidemic rages, ER study finds opioids no better than Advil and Tylenol

#160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same here. After a LONGGG phone call cradling the receiver while trying to type, etc., I had my neck spasm severely -- so much so that the following day someone else had to drive me to urgent care (1). They prescribed a strong muscle relaxant in combination with either Percocet or Vicadin -- I forget which. I switched over to the default over the counter dose of ibuprofen, and it worked better than the combination of…

I've found through my experience that the choice of urgent care vs a non-urgent care doctor is more important than I have always thought: An urgent care center wants to focus on the shortest path to getting you relief (your story aside). They'll err towards slightly over-prescribing. The non-urgent care doc will take a more comprehensive treatment path. A slight distinction that might not matter sometimes, but i ofte…

Yeah. Rather than your typical urgent care facility, this was the hospital's initial effort to significantly expand its effective service area. It was a quite substantial building -- since expanded to the size of some hospitals -- and they had labeled what I used an "emergency room". My family suggested going there as it was a lot closer.

That ER doctor just gave me the prescriptions and sent me off. No follow-up care. I guess you'd have had to see my level of discomfort. My family was equally surprised and disappointed.

I take your point. And much of the U.S. health care system keeps pushing patients towards urgent care and "the doctor at hand". Not that there aren't good urgent care staff; nonetheless, it doesn't exactly promote medical management.

Also, I've delayed some care because I've been uncertain of the approach and awaited more information and perhaps improved procedures and techniques. This might well be called a conservative approach -- and these days, so much of the U.S. rhetoric is about the need to be "conservative". Well, much of that is actually "Conservative", which is actually a rather different ideology.

Yet, insurance keeps worsening by the year. Patients who might otherwise be inclined to be conservative and await better knowledge as well as what would normally be lower costs (in most other industries, "product" costs decline with age and with technical improvements and growing marketshare). Well, in U.S. health care, patients can feel compelled to "act now", because while technology and standards of care may improve, next year's insurance may well not cover it or cover it enough for it to be affordable ($5000 deductible? $7500?), if one even has insurance next year.

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