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DOJ: Strong encryption that we don’t have access to is “unreasonable”

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Re: DOJ: Strong encryption that we don’t have access to is “unreasonable”

#81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's... just not true. And that kind of misrepresentation just weakens the arguments for strong encryption, because intelligent people will see them as pretty transparent misrepresentations. Have you considered that's why the arguments for strong encryption aren't going well -- that we're not actually engaging with intelligent people trying to understand the issue, we're chanting trite, shallow inaccuracies? I mean…

> I mean -- "there is not a gradient"? ...what do you call changing key size? It isn't that there are no levels of security, it's that you can't be at two separate levels at the same time. There is no overlap. Mandating 512-bit RSA is useless because the government could break it but so can everybody else. Allowing 4096-bit RSA wouldn't allow the government to break it. There is no middle ground. Mandating something…

>It isn't that there are no levels of security, it's that you can't be at two separate levels at the same time. There is no overlap.

What do you say to DUAL_EC_DRBG, which seems to be precisely that "separate levels" of security you claim is impossible?

Re: DOJ: Strong encryption that we don’t have access to is “unreasonable”

#82
post #42
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The probability of that can be made arbitrarily low by proper choice of parameters for the secret sharing system, at least against realistic threats over realistic timeframes.

What are some examples of such parameters?

Definition: a "(t, n) threshold system" is a method of taking a b-bit number, s, and producing n b-bit numbers with the property that someone who has access to t or more of those n numbers can reconstruct s, but someone who has access to less than t of the numbers can learn nothing about s. The n b-bit numbers are called "shares".

Suppose you use a (5,5) threshold system to make 5 shares of a secret, and you distribute those shares to 5 shareholders. Someone who wants to get your secret without your cooperation has to convince all 5 shareholders to cooperate (or steal copies of the shares from all 5 of them).

If that does not provide a sufficient level of protection, you could instead go with a (6,6) or (7,7) or higher threshold system. The higher you go, the less likely it is that a bad actor will be able to get copies of all the shares.

A drawback of that approach is that if just one shareholder loses their share, the secret is not recoverable. That can be addressed by increasing n more than t. Instead of say, a (7,7) threshold system maybe you use a (7,10).

That's the basic idea. You set t high enough that the chances that a bad actor, even a powerful one, could subvert t different shareholders is low enough for you, and you set n above t a bit to allow for some shareholders losing their shares or being unavailable if the time ever comes when the shareholders decide that there is a legitimate reason to recover your secret.

Going beyond the basic idea, you can add a second level. You take your secret, and make, say, 4 shares using a (4,4) system. Let's call these "level 1 shares". Instead of giving the level 1 shares to shareholders, we can take each level 1 share, use a separate threshold system to make shares of the level 1 share, which we call "level 2 shares", and distribute the level 2 shares to shareholders.

What this does is let us make different categories of shareholders, with different weights.

So we might make 4 level 1 shares, using a (4,4) system. Call these s1, s2, s3, and s4. We thing might apply a (3,3) system to s1, and give the resulting shares to whatever agency or department or branch handles warrants in 3 separate foreign national governments.

s2 we apply a (3,6) system to, and given those 6 shares to 6 non-government civil rights organizations.

s3 we apply a (3,6) system to, and give those to 6 individuals that we trust.

s4 we apply a (2,3) system to, and give those to three commercial entities that offer shareholding as a service. We should pick entities in 3 different countries, separate from the countries we gave s1's shares to.

With that scheme, someone trying to get at our secret needs to get 3 foreign governments, 3 civil rights organizations, 3 people we trust, and 2 companies to all agree that giving up our secret is justified.

As with the single level approach you can bump the particular numbers up or down to decrease or increase the chances that someone can illegitimately get your secret.

Re: DOJ: Strong encryption that we don’t have access to is “unreasonable”

#83
post #29
post #4

What did the police do before there was the internet or phones?

I imagine they spent a lot of time solving crimes, asking questions like: "Where did they keep all their papers and correspondence?" "Can somebody come break into this safe we have a warrant for?" What did the cops do before X was invented? They didn't worry about X being used to commit or cover up criminal activities while continuing to try to do their job of keeping communities either safe or oppressed, depending o…

[deleted]

Re: DOJ: Strong encryption that we don’t have access to is “unreasonable”

#84

Here's my biggest complaint with this debate - people are confusing literal with metaphorical. They make the analogy of the unbreakable safe. Encryption isn't that. You can still recover the physical phone and all of the storage chips on it. That the patterns of bits in the chips make up some unrecognizable utterance is seemingly immaterial. I could write gibberish in my journal at home if I wanted to, and I think we…

I think you're the one confusing reality with matter. Nobody ever cared about anybody's diary as a physical artifact. What matters (pun intended) is the information.

The way to fight for strong privacy isn't to run around screaming how "these people just don't GET it!". Because they will look at the framed Math PhD certificate on the wall and rightfully conclude that you're starting from wrong assumptions.

Instead, start by imagine the most perfect FBI agents you can. Then, debate them.

That debate must start with agreeing that your idealized agent does indeed have a harder job when all evidence moves from binders full of incriminating paper to an encrypted, impenetrable blob. Not accepting that truth makes you useless for your cause, because nobody who isn't already a convert will listen to you if you deny reality with ill-fitting analogies.

Only then can you make your case, the two main arguments of which should be:

- It is impossible to weaken encryption without running the risk of those weaknesses being exploited, or the keys to the backdoor, falling into the hands of bad actors.

- The ability to automate electronic surveillance potentially increases the quantity of surveillance to a point where it also takes on a different quality. Even if judicial oversight remained (which is questionable, considering FISA et al), privacy invasion was previously limited by two informal, yet important, caveats: the costs and resources required to have agents physically search, and the public visibility of such searches.

Re: DOJ: Strong encryption that we don’t have access to is “unreasonable”

#85
post #24

The government has demonstrated that they will abuse every power given to them, and even those that weren't. I would not entrust every aspect of my personal information to the very same organizations that indefinitely detains people, including American citizens, without access to a lawyer while commiting acts of torture; and the ones that said the Patriot Act could never be used for domestic surveilance; that lied ab…

Everything you're saying is true, but I think there's something far less dramatic that somehow rings true for people even more. One revelation of Snowden is that the NSA would regularly 'seize' and pass around attractive nudes and other such media that were intercepted from people. [1] At other times there was something that even got its own little name 'LOVEINT' which would involve NSA workers spying on their love o…

Another thing to the debate about "I have nothing to hide":

Who decides what is meaningfull to hide in 20 years time? The relationships you had 20 years ago, what are they doing now? You don't know but the government surely does and you had connections to these people that now are possible terrorists. Good luck getting through the security check at the next airport.

Re: DOJ: Strong encryption that we don’t have access to is “unreasonable”

#86

Here's my biggest complaint with this debate - people are confusing literal with metaphorical. They make the analogy of the unbreakable safe. Encryption isn't that. You can still recover the physical phone and all of the storage chips on it. That the patterns of bits in the chips make up some unrecognizable utterance is seemingly immaterial. I could write gibberish in my journal at home if I wanted to, and I think we…

His comment makes sense to 99% on non-tech people, and if it was possible it would make sense to all. Would we want to open Bin Laden's iPhone? He wants you to have your home with 100 locks, guard dogs and armed guards. BUT if a court orders you, you have to let the police in to check x, y and z. Now I don't think that a secret key can be somewhere and stay safe for a long time. It will be leaked or hacked. This plac…

It's insane to see this comment downvoted. Hey HN: this guy/gal is agreeing with you! To punish them for not participating in your willful misunderstanding of this argument is intellectually bankrupt, and toxic to your cause.

Re: DOJ: Strong encryption that we don’t have access to is “unreasonable”

#87

Here's my biggest complaint with this debate - people are confusing literal with metaphorical. They make the analogy of the unbreakable safe. Encryption isn't that. You can still recover the physical phone and all of the storage chips on it. That the patterns of bits in the chips make up some unrecognizable utterance is seemingly immaterial. I could write gibberish in my journal at home if I wanted to, and I think we…

I think you're the one confusing reality with matter. Nobody ever cared about anybody's diary as a physical artifact. What matters (pun intended) is the information. The way to fight for strong privacy isn't to run around screaming how "these people just don't GET it!". Because they will look at the framed Math PhD certificate on the wall and rightfully conclude that you're starting from wrong assumptions. Instead, s…

> That debate must start with agreeing that your idealized agent does indeed have a harder job when all evidence moves from binders full of incriminating paper to an encrypted, impenetrable blob. Not accepting that truth makes you useless for your cause, because nobody who isn't already a convert will listen to you if you deny reality with ill-fitting analogies.

This. 1000 times this.

I'm actually really worried that, the harder our community pushes back against seemingly reasonable requests for access, and the louder we scream about stuff like the Texas shooter's phone, the less political capital we're going to have left to spend when we need it. And we're going to need a lot of it for this fight.

Re: DOJ: Strong encryption that we don’t have access to is “unreasonable”

#88
post #65

The argument here is extremely simple. Encryption is the only way to secure information. This is true for criminals and non-criminals alike. To deny encryption is to deny security to everyone. Presuming it's the criminals who will look to exploit these vulnerabilities, denying security is making every non-criminal susceptible to attack. So the only question that needs to be answered is this. Do we want to protect our…

> Do we want to protect our citizens? The only answer is yes.

This is not the right question. It is the one they use but is not the right one.

"Do we want our citizen able to protect themselves" is the right question. And as most government have shown, they really don't want it. They want to be in charge of the protecting.

Once you see things from their perspective their position makes more sense.

Re: DOJ: Strong encryption that we don’t have access to is “unreasonable”

#89

Here's my biggest complaint with this debate - people are confusing literal with metaphorical. They make the analogy of the unbreakable safe. Encryption isn't that. You can still recover the physical phone and all of the storage chips on it. That the patterns of bits in the chips make up some unrecognizable utterance is seemingly immaterial. I could write gibberish in my journal at home if I wanted to, and I think we…

His comment makes sense to 99% on non-tech people, and if it was possible it would make sense to all. Would we want to open Bin Laden's iPhone? He wants you to have your home with 100 locks, guard dogs and armed guards. BUT if a court orders you, you have to let the police in to check x, y and z. Now I don't think that a secret key can be somewhere and stay safe for a long time. It will be leaked or hacked. This plac…

I'm not sure why you're being downvoted. Well, actually I do know, and the answer sucks and it's frustrating.

But you're right -- in an ideal world, pretty much nobody would design a future where the worst of humanity can hide behind encryption to avoid accountability.

The problem is that, with the current set of technologies that we have right now, we either give the cops (effectively) the ability to get everything on everyone, limited only by their discretion (ha!), or we give them nothing, and we give guys like Osama Bin Laden and Richard Spencer a place to hide.

One of my biggest fears is that, if we give the voting public only these two options, then eventually they're going to side with Officer Friendly over Bin Laden and Spencer.

Ultimately, it's going to be up to us as technologists to figure out something better.

Re: DOJ: Strong encryption that we don’t have access to is “unreasonable”

#90
post #5

I wish this could be hammered into the thick heads of congress: there is secure, and there is insecure. There is not a gradient.

The "thick heads of congress" will see how you've been proven wrong in other comments, allowing them to follow their instinct to ignore arguments from people who start with an ad hominem.

You may think you're taking a strong stance for privacy and freedom. But anyone who isn't already in your corner, and sees reality through similarly myopic lenses, will only be put off by such blatantly obvious falsehoods.

Technologist tend to follow some variation of the "law of the jungle": disagree with the FED's policies? Create a currency that follows no policy except the one dictated by its algorithm! In this endeavor, they commit two mistakes:

(a) Confusing what is with what ought: the inability to do something, sometimes almost true (monetary policy for bitcoin), sometimes obviously false (two-key encryption), is used as an argument to shut down debate.

(b) The refusal to meaningfully engage with any argument that is not narrowly about tech. They believe any such arguments aren't "objective", and that they can sidestep it with technology. Yet this fails to see that of course every algorithm or other technology is the child of ideology by just another name.

In doing so, technologists usurp powers that aren't theirs: if the gold standard is the better monetary policy, you're supposed convince enough people to get Rand Paul elected president. Yes, politics is deeply frustrating, because everyone is just wrong, all the time. But it's still a much better decision-making process than five techbros in china noticing their hashrate has made them king.

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