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BitTorrent inventor announces eco-friendly Bitcoin competitor Chia

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Re: BitTorrent inventor announces eco-friendly Bitcoin competitor Chia

#281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also found the wine example peculiar, as good wine and scarce wine aren't often the same, but I kept with it as it was brought up. Mistakenly I thought you had brought it up, sorry. "Aggregate market demands" are capitalism, where wine is a status symbol and "good" wine generally refers to price. You are continuing to view this only in the eyes of capitalism and considering "value" to include "profit."

""Aggregate market demands" are capitalism, where wine is a status symbol and "good" wine generally refers to price" No - what I meant by 'aggregate market demand' was really just 'average price / perception of value' - and 'good' does not refer to 'price' - good wine literally is better. I am not equating value and profit. I am equating value and price. Some goods are generally better than others (i.e. most people w…

Like I said, someone else brought up the wine example and I just continued it despite finding it clumsy.

Price is value plus profit, thats the only reason to distinguish between the two.

Re: BitTorrent inventor announces eco-friendly Bitcoin competitor Chia

#282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK. Of what utility to mankind is SHA256(SHA256(candidate)) after it is discarded by the miner? What do we get from that?

isn't that obvious? it is of utility of verifying that candidate can't secure the ledger. this really comes down to question whether you think the distributed, writable by anybody ledger is useful to humanity. personally i think it absolutely is. do you?

Not quite. It most certainly doesn’t come down to that, and it’s a reduction of what I’m saying. I’m drawing a distinction between the specific way bitcoin verifies its ledger versus cryptocurrency and distributed ledgers themselves. I took pains to enunciate that repeatedly, so let me try to illustrate with an example:

Say I have one watt of power. I apply it to a computer for however long and it spends that energy folding a protein, simulating a gravitational system, or modeling a hurricane. I apply it to another computer and it spends that watt for however long computing a double SHA256 and throwing away the result. If, at the end of both calculations, I have worked toward proof of work on a secure ledger, which energy was better spent for humanity? That’s the difference: while the secure blockchain is a noble goal, what the computer is doing during that time is something we badly need to rethink. “The double-hash of these bytes is ” isn’t even useful if we collected it. It’s meaningless computing. Yes, we ascribe meaning when blocks are made, but it’s a very irresponsible technical decision to waste energy in order to prove that work was done.

This would be fine if it were a low amount of energy, but it isn’t. We are talking gigawatts that are potentially being spent on this, which is part of the point I was trying to make. Electricity isn’t free, and it’s important to consider our planet. Bitcoin essentially puts computers in a busy loop, and it’s a very hamfisted means of achieving its goal. We have already seen alternative concepts, including this one, that illustrate there is potentially another way to achieve what we want without throwing a small star’s worth of energy at the computing infrastructure behind it.

Coming after people and assuming they’re criticizing cryptocurrency as a concept whenever a specific piece is questioned is tough to discuss against. I think cryptocurrency can do better, and there are undoubtedly better ways to come up with to secure a distributed ledger. I’m alarmed that the adoption of bitcoin has exploded our utilization of resources and that people feel that worry about this is an indictment of the whole concept; this polarization makes it difficult for all of us to improve.

So, no, it isn’t obvious what value I should see out of a computer spinning itself through SHA2 for no benefit aside from securing a ledger. In any other domain, we’d consider such a design ridiculous. There has to be another way, one where that same (intensive) calculation can benefit humanity for the power that we are throwing at it, and we still end up with a secure blockchain. I’m not smart enough to invent it. I hope we can support the people who are, and perhaps admit that bitcoin’s proof of work scheme is a mistake in the larger landscape.

I worry that given how deep we are into ASIC development, arguments against what I’m saying are only going to get louder as time goes on. We are probably long past the point of no return with bitcoin already.

Re: BitTorrent inventor announces eco-friendly Bitcoin competitor Chia

#283
post #242

I work in energy efficiency, so bitcoin makes me cry. Any sane clean energy transition plan requires significant savings (no you can't just build a bunch of PV). But while we are killing ourselves trying to get people to adopt green buildings and low energy appliances, along comes Bitcoin where people just burn energy for nothing.

it is not for nothing but for wealth protection, it is impossible to do a DDOS attack because you have to burn energy as a collateral, people will exploit anything when it comes to money so this is the only fair one

[deleted]

Re: BitTorrent inventor announces eco-friendly Bitcoin competitor Chia

#284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you think it's for nothing you don't understand bitcoin. If it would require no energy to create Bitcoin it would be completely useless. Moreover, banks also burn energy. Arguably Bitcoin is potentially even more green than other carriers of value because it can be completely produced from natural resources such as wind and sun, whereas mining gold or other precious metals often requires more damaging techniques.…

It's for nothing as in, energy is consumed and nothing of value to society is produced. When a bank uses energy to run its services, those computers actually achieve something (like, for instance, managing to process more than a handful of transactions per second). Bitcoin's 'proof of work' is just a very complicated heating system. You are literally going through the whole rigmarole just to increase the entropy of t…

Nothing of value? For real? Currency and a means of transacting it is produced. Being able to move your wealth outside of China is produced.

Re: BitTorrent inventor announces eco-friendly Bitcoin competitor Chia

#285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I actually agree with the person. Cryptocurrency is horrendously wasteful. But that person ignored what I said because that's not what I was discussing. That's the straw man argument I mentioned.

How am I building a strawman? I didn’t ignore anything you said; I’m responding directly to it. The computation does nothing. Until the brute force finds a hash that meets difficulty, it’s computing literally nothing of value. That’s computation and energy we do not get back. You’re not folding proteins, you’re not rendering climatological models, you’re not training machine learning. You are hashing, then throwing i…

> . Until the brute force finds a hash that meets difficulty, it’s computing literally nothing of value

It's not doing nothing. It's searching - searching for a hash that can be used to protect the ledger from attacks.

Saying it's doing nothing is like saying Dijkstra's algorithm is doing nothing until it finally finds the shortest path. That's just plain wrong. Sorry.

Re: BitTorrent inventor announces eco-friendly Bitcoin competitor Chia

#286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

isn't that obvious? it is of utility of verifying that candidate can't secure the ledger. this really comes down to question whether you think the distributed, writable by anybody ledger is useful to humanity. personally i think it absolutely is. do you?

Not quite. It most certainly doesn’t come down to that, and it’s a reduction of what I’m saying. I’m drawing a distinction between the specific way bitcoin verifies its ledger versus cryptocurrency and distributed ledgers themselves. I took pains to enunciate that repeatedly, so let me try to illustrate with an example: Say I have one watt of power. I apply it to a computer for however long and it spends that energy…

There is no other way to secure a distributed ledger at the moment other than using large amounts of power. That leaves two choices:

1. Admit that you think that crypto currency is not worth the energy cost. Even if you believe that, it's just wasted breath on your part because they are absolutely not going to go away.

2. Propose another solution. No one else on earth has found a better solution than proof of work. Do you have something better?

Re: BitTorrent inventor announces eco-friendly Bitcoin competitor Chia

#288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

isn't that obvious? it is of utility of verifying that candidate can't secure the ledger. this really comes down to question whether you think the distributed, writable by anybody ledger is useful to humanity. personally i think it absolutely is. do you?

Not quite. It most certainly doesn’t come down to that, and it’s a reduction of what I’m saying. I’m drawing a distinction between the specific way bitcoin verifies its ledger versus cryptocurrency and distributed ledgers themselves. I took pains to enunciate that repeatedly, so let me try to illustrate with an example: Say I have one watt of power. I apply it to a computer for however long and it spends that energy…

> which energy was better spent for humanity?

Wrong question. It implies energy can only be used exclusively for single purpose. The right question is given X watts, what is the ideal distribution for Y purposes and the answer is that we dont know but we tend to value some things more than others and that will be reflected in the distribution

> no benefit aside from securing the ledger

This is the crucial point that many who raise the same objection dont get: proof of work has to be futile by design. In fact it is misnomer and the correct name should be Proof of energy spent, as the energy is the ultimate resource we’re paying for security of the ledger. If we accept that ledger security must be tied to solving some more “important” problem, and there indeed was a non futile problem space, some f(candidate) that yields two results: (candidate-ok?, problem-solved?), the incentive to search that space drops to zero because it is no longer tied to solving the “important” problem. And suddenly the ledger is useless.

If you know how to resolve this conflict - publish a paper and you will be the next Satoshi.

Re: BitTorrent inventor announces eco-friendly Bitcoin competitor Chia

#289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The value of a product is equivalent to the amount of labour exerceted in its production.

"The value of a product is equivalent to the amount of labour exerceted in its production" This is one of the most problematic statements ever made in Econ. The 'value' of a product is different for everyone, and it's what you (or anyone else) will pay for it. The idea that 'work = value' is one of the most distortionary ideas in business, even today. Just had a discussion today about pricing a product, and it was de…

> The 'value' of a product is different for everyone, and it's what you (or anyone else) will pay for it.

Marx did not dispute that. His point, rather, was that workers are paid significantly less than the actual value of the work that they do (because said value is directly measured by how much their product sold for, minus all the non-labor expenses).

And from there he concluded that the difference is the economic rent that the owner of the means of production is effectively extracting from those workers, by virtue of his ownership giving him the monopoly on them (or rather, by virtue of the capitalist class collectively having a monopoly on the means of production).

And that, being pure rent, it does not serve any useful purpose in the economy, except for the one collecting it - i.e. things would be more efficient if people couldn't collect rent like that, which he proposed to achieve by rejecting the notion that means of production can be privately owned in a way that also bestows ownership of whatever is produced by them.

Re: BitTorrent inventor announces eco-friendly Bitcoin competitor Chia

#290
post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

YAY a GPU from a year ago that had 100% GPU usage for full 11months with cheap cooling is on sale now for 20% of its initial price!

I think s/he means more volume leads to lower prices (in the long run)

and we see that on GPU marker were prices are going up all the time since 2 years ago...
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