We gave the Japanese amnesty for https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731 in exchange for their biological warfare data. We had the option to do the right thing (burn it, put it on display), but we validated it.
Ethical issues in research using datasets of illicit origin
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Re: Ethical issues in research using datasets of illicit origin
#12We gave the Japanese amnesty for https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731 in exchange for their biological warfare data. We had the option to do the right thing (burn it, put it on display), but we validated it.
> We had the option to do the right thing (burn it, put it on display), but we validated it.
I'm not sure complete amnesty was the best thing to do, but I don't think destroying the data would be the best either. If we had burned the data that was already gathered, it would have been a complete waste of human life. Those people experimented on were murdered, and burning the data would have made those murders pointless. By using that data, we could prevent human death in the future.
Re: Ethical issues in research using datasets of illicit origin
#13(self-promotion) To anyone who is interested in this topic, I published a paper a few years back on the topic of 'accidentally illicit' datasets. It's not my best work but someone might find it interesting. http://firstmonday.org/ojs/index.php/fm/article/view/2739/24... Amusing anecdote: I wrote this paper (2) after a reviewer insisted they would reject my other paper (1) unless I tested the paper's algorithm on 10%…
I love that story. But I have two questions. 1) What would be the possible motivation for such hostility from the first reviewer? 2) Why did you create a temporary throwaway account but then promote a paper with your real name and information?
1) My first publication in the topic, iirc. The only reason I can see them doing this when all the other reviews were good was eg. They have grant applications underway and feel undermined, or they are petty and don't want their own technique to look bad etc. (the extreme roadblocking and 'I won't let you compare performance or accuracy against other techniques!!' is a little telling imho...)
There are a lot of people out there who think a field of research and all the money in it belongs to them.
And there's some angry people who have effectively no power or influence over their own everyday life that act like little tyrants when they get to review papers.
(fwiw, I coauthored (1) without any grant support, just for fun, and don't think I ever applied for a grant in that area? I can't remember).
Who knows? Trying to figure out hostile reviewers is a guessing game and not very helpful for your own happiness
2a) travelling on holiday, posting from my phone.
And
2b) this has personal identifying info and I can't remember everything I've ever posted on my other account right now, (or even the u/p for my desktop account, haven't posted in months)
P.s. Glad you enjoyed it, I've been looking for an excuse to mention that story for years :-)
Re: Ethical issues in research using datasets of illicit origin
#14[deleted]
Re: Ethical issues in research using datasets of illicit origin
#15Good work, Daniel. A laboriously-gathered overview of current practice, and discussion of how to determine whether uses of illegally-obtained data are justified.
It may be a wonderful paper and discussion but the author seems ridiculously positive about IRBs. http://slatestarcodex.com/2017/08/29/my-irb-nightmare/ HN discussion of the above https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15127271
That's a different field entirely. Just because some American hospitals have trouble organising medical ethics reviews, does not mean that European or even American CompSci researchers will run into the same problems. Indeed, Daniel is (I think) positive perhaps based on good interactions with the ethics committee here (my wife is certainly happy with the ethics reviews she's had).
Even in that SSC discussion linked, many SSC commenters agree that their own ethics system was far easier, even in medicine.
Re: Ethical issues in research using datasets of illicit origin
#16Good work, Daniel. A laboriously-gathered overview of current practice, and discussion of how to determine whether uses of illegally-obtained data are justified.
It may be a wonderful paper and discussion but the author seems ridiculously positive about IRBs. http://slatestarcodex.com/2017/08/29/my-irb-nightmare/ HN discussion of the above https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15127271
You seem to be extrapolating from an extremely small sample, and one that mostly makes fun of things that would exist (eventually) in any such process. It's not really a useful rebuttal, and you probably should not draw strong conclusions from it.
Re: Ethical issues in research using datasets of illicit origin
#17We gave the Japanese amnesty for https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731 in exchange for their biological warfare data. We had the option to do the right thing (burn it, put it on display), but we validated it.
> We had the option to do the right thing (burn it, put it on display), but we validated it. I'm not sure complete amnesty was the best thing to do, but I don't think destroying the data would be the best either. If we had burned the data that was already gathered, it would have been a complete waste of human life. Those people experimented on were murdered, and burning the data would have made those murders pointles…
If I remember correctly, there was also a similar set of unethical decisions in Nazi Germany that generated a body of knowledge of how humans survive under "situations", like lack of oxygen, rapid-(de)pressurization, decompression, % body burned and live. Just a whole lot of horrible things.
The problem was, this was done scientifically. Controls, and all that. The problem was they were intentionally treating their subjects (Jewish) like lab rats.
But when WWII ended, we realized some of their data could be used for the space race. And the US used it.
The ethical issues here are all encompassing. Do you get rid of it and let them die in vain? Do you use it, and benefit on people executed over genocide conditions? There's no good way to answer this, as the converse has a valid argument as well.
I look back and say, well, I was born in the early 80's. It's about 60 years before my time (would have to be born in the 20's to serve in the 40's).
Re: Ethical issues in research using datasets of illicit origin
#18We gave the Japanese amnesty for https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731 in exchange for their biological warfare data. We had the option to do the right thing (burn it, put it on display), but we validated it.
phew that was one the darkest, bleakest wikipedia entries I've ever read. Does anyone know what it was about the Japanese army in WWII that made them so particularly vicious?
Re: Ethical issues in research using datasets of illicit origin
#19There is a very fine line between authorized data, technically public but implicitly unauthorized data, and illegally obtained, unauthorized data. Here’s an example of each in the financial sector, from my personal experience: 1. Financial account aggregators and “budget apps” like Min monetize their business, in part, by selling huge amounts of data to the financial sector. Sometimes companies like Second Measure ta…
Your second example is very fascinating. Is finding unique datasets like this part of your job? How lucrative is something like that?
I believe dsacco's posted about doing similar work before. Apparently there are teams of people at hedge funds that comb the web to find these kinds of datasets - non-obvious signals for financial metrics. Very eye-opening stuff. I always find his/her anecdotes interesting.
Re: Ethical issues in research using datasets of illicit origin
#20We gave the Japanese amnesty for https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731 in exchange for their biological warfare data. We had the option to do the right thing (burn it, put it on display), but we validated it.
phew that was one the darkest, bleakest wikipedia entries I've ever read. Does anyone know what it was about the Japanese army in WWII that made them so particularly vicious?
Empire, Fascism, Racism and Xenophobia.