'Zombie ant' brains left intact by fungal parasite • Hacker News Board

Re: 'Zombie ant' brains left intact by fungal parasite

#41

Post by ComodoHacker » Thu, Nov 09, 2017, 3:34 PM UTC

zaarn wrote: post #2

>"Normally in animals, behavior is controlled by the brain sending signals to the muscles, but our results suggest that the parasite is controlling host behavior peripherally," Hughes said. "Almost like a puppeteer pulls the strings to make a marionette move, the fungus controls the ant's muscles to manipulate the host's legs and mandibles." Probably the most "And I Must Scream" moment in mother nature. Imagine a hum…

That seems logical. To control such a complex system as an ant's brain, the fungus itself must be no less complex. So controlling ant's muscles directly is the shortest (in evolutionary sense) path to its goal.

Re: 'Zombie ant' brains left intact by fungal parasite

#42

Post by deadmetheny » Thu, Nov 09, 2017, 3:37 PM UTC

Larrikin wrote: post #24

zaarn wrote: post #2

>"Normally in animals, behavior is controlled by the brain sending signals to the muscles, but our results suggest that the parasite is controlling host behavior peripherally," Hughes said. "Almost like a puppeteer pulls the strings to make a marionette move, the fungus controls the ant's muscles to manipulate the host's legs and mandibles." Probably the most "And I Must Scream" moment in mother nature. Imagine a hum…

I was always a little disappointed I had so many friends get into Harry Potter when I was younger. Animorphs explores this idea in depth, especially for a kids novel. So in depth that you eventually feel that the parasite controlling other beings can be justified in their war. It is still a kids series so many of the books are filler, but the beginnings, chronicles, and ending are very deep even when looked at throug…

>It is still a kids series

Man, after having gone back and re-read them as an adult, it's only barely a kids series. Animorphs went hard in the paint with the horrors of war angle.

Re: 'Zombie ant' brains left intact by fungal parasite

#43

Post by eighthnate » Thu, Nov 09, 2017, 3:41 PM UTC

zaarn wrote: post #2

>"Normally in animals, behavior is controlled by the brain sending signals to the muscles, but our results suggest that the parasite is controlling host behavior peripherally," Hughes said. "Almost like a puppeteer pulls the strings to make a marionette move, the fungus controls the ant's muscles to manipulate the host's legs and mandibles." Probably the most "And I Must Scream" moment in mother nature. Imagine a hum…

This is an interesting topic in the world of psychology, neuroscience and behavioral sciences. For all of human history, the elite has been able to control human behavior through propaganda which target our eyes and ears primarily. Comparing it to computers, our eyes and ears are natural APIs to our brain. And the elite used words/sound, pictures/imagery, etc to manipulate the masses/brain. If neuroscience advances sufficiently enough, we might be able to bypass the eyes/ears/senses and directly manipulate the brain. This would be akin to using system exploits to bypass APIs and directly access memory and take control of a system. If we reach that stage, we won't need propaganda or psy ops or anything like that anymore to gets people to think or act in a particular manner. The elites/government can directly manipulate the brain/memory. It would be a form of direct parasitic control rather than the current indirect parasitic control of the masses by the government/elites.

But maybe if society and science has advanced to such a level, maybe we won't need humans anymore. If our understanding of the brain gets to such a level, organic/natural humans who be an evolutionary dead end and we'll be producing sentient AI. It seems like AI and brain research goes hand in hand. One informs the other and vice versa. The more we learn about the brain, the more we learn about AI. The more we learn about AI, the more we learn about the brain. Very interesting stuff.

Re: 'Zombie ant' brains left intact by fungal parasite

#44

Post by eighthnate » Thu, Nov 09, 2017, 3:46 PM UTC

If anyone is interested in "zombies" in nature or parasitism, david attenborough did a documentary on wasps and their parasitism. There is also something called hyperparasitism which are parasites that prey on other parasites.

Re: 'Zombie ant' brains left intact by fungal parasite

#45

Post by 46886532558 » Thu, Nov 09, 2017, 3:52 PM UTC

ComodoHacker wrote: post #41

zaarn wrote: post #2

>"Normally in animals, behavior is controlled by the brain sending signals to the muscles, but our results suggest that the parasite is controlling host behavior peripherally," Hughes said. "Almost like a puppeteer pulls the strings to make a marionette move, the fungus controls the ant's muscles to manipulate the host's legs and mandibles." Probably the most "And I Must Scream" moment in mother nature. Imagine a hum…

That seems logical. To control such a complex system as an ant's brain, the fungus itself must be no less complex. So controlling ant's muscles directly is the shortest (in evolutionary sense) path to its goal.

I don't think partial control of a complex system requires a system of equal complexity. Even human behavior can be influenced in the brain by something simple as a drug or virus.

Re: 'Zombie ant' brains left intact by fungal parasite

#46

Post by grasshopperpurp » Thu, Nov 09, 2017, 3:52 PM UTC

ajuc wrote: post #30

One thing I wonder about is - why would it evolve to make the ants go away from the anthill? Surely it would be best for spreading the fungus to make them go to the anthill and die there? It seems more like a quarantine mechanism from ants POV. The fungus would spread faster if the ant continued as usual till it died, or stayed in the anthill. But it also helps the fungus in a way - if the ants died in the anthill th…

If I remember correctly, the fungus often (always?) manipulates the insect to climb to a relatively high point before spores burst from its head and body.

https://www.google.com/search?q=spores+bursting+from+insects...

Re: 'Zombie ant' brains left intact by fungal parasite

#47

Post by goda90 » Thu, Nov 09, 2017, 3:56 PM UTC

corndoge wrote: post #3

zaarn wrote: post #2

>"Normally in animals, behavior is controlled by the brain sending signals to the muscles, but our results suggest that the parasite is controlling host behavior peripherally," Hughes said. "Almost like a puppeteer pulls the strings to make a marionette move, the fungus controls the ant's muscles to manipulate the host's legs and mandibles." Probably the most "And I Must Scream" moment in mother nature. Imagine a hum…

The Last Of Us explored this concept using a fictional version of this same fungus that infected humans instead

One small detail is if you listen to some of the infected when they aren't attacking it sounds like they might be in agony, like they still have some sort of brain.

Re: 'Zombie ant' brains left intact by fungal parasite

#48

Post by pwdisswordfish » Thu, Nov 09, 2017, 4:02 PM UTC

throwaway7645 wrote: post #14

Grangar wrote: post #5

Look at this picture of the final stage, after the 'stalk' sprouts from the ants head. Pretty haunting. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/85/Ophiocor...

Netflix has a new fungus documentary out called "Mushrooms" I think that shows this scene. This fungus is now being used for Cancer research.

I've seen this before, in a movie - "we cured cancer", then, suddenly, zombie apocalypse.

Re: 'Zombie ant' brains left intact by fungal parasite

#49

Post by pvg » Thu, Nov 09, 2017, 4:17 PM UTC

ajuc wrote: post #34

openasocket wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe the other ants recognize that the individual is infected and forcibly dispel her from the colony, which is a defense mechanism the ants likely evolved. At least that's what's portrayed in the Planet Earth documentary, which spends a few minutes focusing on this fungus. The fungus could have evolved to be more sneaky so the ants wouldn't recognize the infection until it was too late, but I imagine it's easie…

Interesting. I meant maybe the "code" to go far from anthill is in all ants, but only activates (by "design") in sick ones. if (sick) goAway(); Seems like a pretty sensible behavior to evolve in social insect. And fungus just make them stop by destroying the correct muscles. EDIT: and there's also another fungus, that makes the parasitic fungus sterile, so the fungus want to be spread away. https://phys.org/news/2012…

Seems like a pretty sensible behavior to evolve in social insect.

The more reliable mechanism is the one that evolved - other insects decide who gets to stay and who has to be removed.

Re: 'Zombie ant' brains left intact by fungal parasite

#50

Post by jandrese » Thu, Nov 09, 2017, 4:39 PM UTC

zaarn wrote: post #2

>"Normally in animals, behavior is controlled by the brain sending signals to the muscles, but our results suggest that the parasite is controlling host behavior peripherally," Hughes said. "Almost like a puppeteer pulls the strings to make a marionette move, the fungus controls the ant's muscles to manipulate the host's legs and mandibles." Probably the most "And I Must Scream" moment in mother nature. Imagine a hum…

It seems like it must put the host brain to sleep to avoid conflicting signals and to prevent errant signals (like "release the panic pheromone" from getting out). The ants sleepwalk to their doom. It seems like the fungus is still depending on the host brain to keep all of the life functions going, so it can't cut it off entirely from the body.