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Voters say “yes” to city-run broadband in Colorado

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Re: Voters say “yes” to city-run broadband in Colorado

#221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Theoretically, yes. In fact, Senate Bill 152, passed in 2005, already outlaws municipal broadband. From the article: Colorado has a state law requiring municipalities to hold referendums before they can provide cable, telecom, or broadband service. Yesterday, voters in Eagle County and Boulder County authorized their local governments to build broadband networks, "bringing the total number of Colorado counties that h…

free market much ...

how do we want promote free market? Pushing internet services to the hands of the government! \o/

Re: Voters say “yes” to city-run broadband in Colorado

#223
post #206
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Protecting children from harmful drugs. I'm not saying it does that, I'm saying that's the argument to be made.

But it is not harmful.

It is harmful, it's just almost certainly less harmful than alcohol.

Re: Voters say “yes” to city-run broadband in Colorado

#224
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Historically, most places with government owned telco's starting ISPs still had arms length regulation. If that was really the concern, looking at the dozens of countries with experience in regulating this would be rather simple. That said, I agree that you'd get far just by providing the last mile. In the EU, deregulation basically required the owners of monopoly last mile infrastructure to separate them out into se…

European unbundling rules mostly don't apply to cable or fiber, which are the dominant modes of broadband access in the U.S.: http://www.oecd.org/sti/broadband/2-7.pdf . > There are still problems - e.g. BT is often accused of milking OpenReach rather than investing in the network. The caveat is perhaps the opposite of what you suggest. Unbundling works okay in the U.K. because BT OpenReach has been allowed to be qui…

It mostly does apply to fibre, where the fibre is installed as part of upgrading the dominant carriers network, which is to say: almost always.

Where other providers lay new networks, you're right, it doesn't apply, because when other providers lay new networks it is generally evidence there is an actual competitive situation. In the UK most of the fibre deployment is done by OpenReach, with Virgin Media second, and tiny ISPs focusing on high density urban deployments a distant third onwards.

> The caveat is perhaps the opposite of what you suggest. Unbundling works okay in the U.K. because BT OpenReach has been allowed to be quite profitable.

It works ok but could work much better. The problem today is that there is very limited reason for BT to upgrade. They've had to be dragged kicking and screaming into fibre upgrades, and have been given quite a lot of funding to incentivise it. If the UK had tied BT's ability to take out dividends from OpenReach to the amount invested in infrastructure improvements we could have done much better. In that case I'd even support allowing them to set higher profit margins. As long as it'd be matched with higher investments.

> In the U.S. it's entirely ideological. Pro-business free marketers on one side versus people who see broadband as a social justice issue, economics be damned.

But irony is that the European approach has been much more pro-business and free market than the US approach. The US approach is the one that has ended up with massive regulatory capture, but on behalf of the largest ISPs, where the European approach has centered on isolating and minimizing the un-competitive part of the business as much as possible exactly to ensure there's a free market competing over the rest.

Re: Voters say “yes” to city-run broadband in Colorado

#225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Theoretically, yes. In fact, Senate Bill 152, passed in 2005, already outlaws municipal broadband. From the article: Colorado has a state law requiring municipalities to hold referendums before they can provide cable, telecom, or broadband service. Yesterday, voters in Eagle County and Boulder County authorized their local governments to build broadband networks, "bringing the total number of Colorado counties that h…

That’s weird framing. It’s not a “ban” and the public voting to build networks isn’t “rejecting the law”—it’s explicitly contemplated by the law.

Yep, fair point — I should have probably called them "restrictions" instead of using "ban" and "outlawed".

Re: Voters say “yes” to city-run broadband in Colorado

#226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Theoretically, yes. In fact, Senate Bill 152, passed in 2005, already outlaws municipal broadband. From the article: Colorado has a state law requiring municipalities to hold referendums before they can provide cable, telecom, or broadband service. Yesterday, voters in Eagle County and Boulder County authorized their local governments to build broadband networks, "bringing the total number of Colorado counties that h…

What a sad, sad world we live in where a corporation can come in and use legislation to be obviously anti-competitive. What would the world do if comcast or a group of content owners tried to sue netflix out of existence because their business model threatened the incumbents? There'd be pandemonium.

To that end they didn’t sue Netflix out of existence they created HULU.

Re: Voters say “yes” to city-run broadband in Colorado

#227

What are the odds that the city will run an ISP better than, say, the DMV?

Pretty good actually. My main gripe with the DMV is the time spent waiting in line. That's hard to scale. To make the line go faster you need to hire more people. Your driver's license is an important security touch point, so it's going to be hard to move away from getting it in person. An ISP is pretty different from that, right?

My first UK passport was applied for using a paper form submitted at a local post office -- this was pre-widespread Internet. The person in the post office could advise that my photo met the technical requirements (size etc), but couldn't verify my identity.

The most recent renewal was done with an online system which produced a single page PDF declaration -- the rest of the data was only electronic. I printed it, attached my photos, signed and posted it. The new passport was delivered two days later.

You can see the application process: https://www.gov.uk/apply-renew-passport

I think the same applies for a driving license, but my first still has some years before expiry.

Re: Voters say “yes” to city-run broadband in Colorado

#228

I did not understand why Comcast and the other ISPs oppose these initiatives. After the city loses a ton of money running their own ISP, Comcast (or the ISP of your choice) will always be ready to pick up the pieces.

Only it doesn't always work out like that. In Chattanooga the local provider displaced Comcast as the largest ISP and they are making good money.

Also competition is bad. People might get ideas...

Re: Voters say “yes” to city-run broadband in Colorado

#229
post #206
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Protecting children from harmful drugs. I'm not saying it does that, I'm saying that's the argument to be made.

But it is not harmful.

I'm a big supporter of legal weed, but even I know better than that. It's less harmful than alcohol, and about on par with caffeine.

There are definitely effects from long term use. Both science and my personal anecdata of long time smoking friends tell me that.

Re: Voters say “yes” to city-run broadband in Colorado

#230
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The real explanation is that cities make competing hard through well intentioned but misguided requirements. Getting a cable franchise means shouldering substantial public interest obligations, in particular the obligation to serve a whole city without regard to proven demand. (You can tell that’s the real reason because waiver of that requirement was the key concession Google demanded where it rolled out Fiber.) You…

At the same time, without those requirements, only the most profitable (read: rich) neighborhoods would be cherry picked, leaving the rest of us without service. That would make the digital divide even bigger, widening the gap between rich and poor.

It's not about the absolute wealth of the neighborhood so much as customers per linear foot of fiber (with some scaling for how hard it is to lay that fiber). Apartment buildings with lots of potential customers can end up being much more attractive than mansions with huge yards and one customer in each, even if the mansions' uptake rate is 100% and the apartments' uptake rate is much lower.
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