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Explore Wealth and Income Inequality in the World Wealth and Income Database

wid.world

171–180 of 248 posts

Re: Explore Wealth and Income Inequality in the World Wealth and Income Database

#171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The whole idea of inequality, while potentially useful, kind of assumes a fixed pie. No. The idea of income inequality assumes that no matter the size of the pie, everyone should have a decent slice of pie that lets them live comfortably. Industrialization was supposed to reduce the amount of hours we work and increase our quality of life. We seemed to have reached a floor at 40/50 hours a week and many many people…

And yet even the poorest in the US still have TVs and refrigerators. I don't dismiss that life is difficult for many, but I also realize that they're working hard for a higher standard of living than is possible in many other times in history and many countries today. And in actuality, the poorest quintile in the USA is the quintile that works the least hours, not the most! Why do the top 20% of Americans work so muc…

Pointing out that poor people (especially poor ethnic minorities) have cellphones and TVs and that many have trouble finding and holding jobs without doing any further investigation of people’s circumstances or any attempt at empathy is a favorite talking point of race-baiting politicians on the right who want to drum up outrage in support of cutting basic social services and public infrastructure, so they can return the money to their rich donors.

But having a cellphone and a TV doesn’t provide someone a reasonable standard of living if they can’t also afford housing, basic medical care, nutritious food, childcare, schooling, transportation, wintertime heating, clothing, and the like. People who are lacking basic necessities like shelter and access to transportation, and who often additionally suffer from injuries, mental illness, chronic depression/anxiety, substance abuse problems, etc., and even more often face systemic discrimination (if only for gaps in their resume, poor hygiene, etc.), find it incredibly difficult to fix every problem in their lives by themselves and pull off a complicated and time-demanding middle-class lifestyle. Blaming them for their own predicament is cruel and counterproductive, even in those cases where there were a list of poor choices involved, and often has the effect of whitewashing situations where people ended up getting screwed by fraud and abuse (either systematic or personal). It is based on a fallacious world-view wherein people are inherently virtuous or sinful, and the sinful are both irredeemable and deserve whatever misery they get.

(Which is not to discount the benefits of gadgets: The prices of consumer electronics have been pushed down to incredibly cheap levels by massive economies of scale, people have a strong demand for communications and entertainment, and having access to such tools makes a big positive difference on people’s lives. But it doesn’t replace food and shelter.)

Re: Explore Wealth and Income Inequality in the World Wealth and Income Database

#172

1. When everyone was a farmer, the difference between the best possible farmer and the worst farmer just wasn't that great. Maybe you're 2x faster at picking corn, or 3x better at hunting deer. But a few guys literally built a communication tool (WhatsApp) to be used by billions of people. So maybe in the old world you could pick 2x as much corn, but in today's world you can build 1 billion times the communication to…

>2. The whole idea of inequality, while potentially useful, kind of assumes a fixed pie

This is incorrect assumption.

The idea behind too much inequality being bad assumes feedback loop. If you want to grow the pie, every non zero-sum investment into production and innovation must be matched by equivalent increase in consumption that creates the ROI.

Post industrial economies are 60-70% private consumption, rest is government spending. All busines-to-business earnings flow from these two if you follow the money. Every product and industry has their money flowing trough private consumption or government spending, including WhatsApp.

If too much of the money flows into the richest people, they only consume fraction of what they earn. Rest of their money is spend buying property or investments (increasing property prices or recusing P/E values). Economy turns into rent seeking, ROI decreases and the pie stops growing.

All innovations that grow economy must pay themselves by producing money flow goes into the private consumers or to the governments pay collecting taxes. If private consumption is reduced, then either governments must step up and pay welfare benefits and invest into stuff like military or else the real economy slows down.

Growth economy is not a pipeline that has the beginning and the end. It's a loop where money flows to other direction and products flow to the opposite direction. Income equality is not categorically bad. __too_much__ income inequality creates a stunt that directs too much money into capital goods and reduces the overall flow.

Re: Explore Wealth and Income Inequality in the World Wealth and Income Database

#173

1. When everyone was a farmer, the difference between the best possible farmer and the worst farmer just wasn't that great. Maybe you're 2x faster at picking corn, or 3x better at hunting deer. But a few guys literally built a communication tool (WhatsApp) to be used by billions of people. So maybe in the old world you could pick 2x as much corn, but in today's world you can build 1 billion times the communication to…

Part of the problem is that the inequality leads to behavior that protects the inequality. Disney passing lobbying for laws that will keep their work out of public domain despite how much they benefited from public domain. Drug companies lobbying to outlaw certain products that would help people but cut into profits. Enough inequality allows information control. Enough information control allows government control. O…

> Part of the problem is that the inequality leads to behavior that protects the inequality.

I do agree with you, but I think it's worth nitpicking the examples. Is the Disney case an inequality problem? I'm not sure that it is. Suppose we waved a magic wand, and suddenly all of Disney's employees and shareholders were middle class people. Would that change Disney Inc's incentives around IP lobbying?

I think that rather than an inequality problem, cases like Disney are something like a "concentrated interests" problem. Even if every individual person had exactly the same amount of money in the bank, they wouldn't all be equally invested in the exact same things, and competing interests would still emerge. Disney's incentives follow just from the fact that it has shareholders, regardless of how much wealth those shareholders have. And for what it's worth, as a society, this is definitely the problem we want! Concentrated interests solve huge problems, like how to make a $100 million movie that everyone wants to see, but that no one person could fund on their own.

Re: Explore Wealth and Income Inequality in the World Wealth and Income Database

#174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The whole idea of inequality, while potentially useful, kind of assumes a fixed pie. No. The idea of income inequality assumes that no matter the size of the pie, everyone should have a decent slice of pie that lets them live comfortably. Industrialization was supposed to reduce the amount of hours we work and increase our quality of life. We seemed to have reached a floor at 40/50 hours a week and many many people…

And yet even the poorest in the US still have TVs and refrigerators. I don't dismiss that life is difficult for many, but I also realize that they're working hard for a higher standard of living than is possible in many other times in history and many countries today. And in actuality, the poorest quintile in the USA is the quintile that works the least hours, not the most! Why do the top 20% of Americans work so muc…

And yet even the poorest in the US still have TVs and refrigerators. I don't dismiss that life is difficult for many, ...

The example you gave here suggests you don't know what a difficult life is like.

Re: Explore Wealth and Income Inequality in the World Wealth and Income Database

#175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you said, while true, is one-sided. It omits that companies like Apple are the beneficiaries of large tax breaks that ipso facto function as subsidies (because Apple is the beneficiary of tax spending in innumerable ways). It also looks at different taxation rates for individuals as well, with a capital gain tax that's far lower than ordinary income tax rates, as one example. So "as a society" applies here, in t…

I would ask, what courts, tax laws, civil laws, etc are you referring to? Of course they impact the outcome, but which of those do you think is unfair or antithetical to my point about the free market? I think the tax thing is a huge misconception that just isn't backed up by reality. The US still has a progressive tax system, even after taking into account the many rules (or the mysterious and nefarious "tax breaks"…

Well duh,the top 1% have more that 27% of the wealth...

Re: Explore Wealth and Income Inequality in the World Wealth and Income Database

#176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you said, while true, is one-sided. It omits that companies like Apple are the beneficiaries of large tax breaks that ipso facto function as subsidies (because Apple is the beneficiary of tax spending in innumerable ways). It also looks at different taxation rates for individuals as well, with a capital gain tax that's far lower than ordinary income tax rates, as one example. So "as a society" applies here, in t…

I would ask, what courts, tax laws, civil laws, etc are you referring to? Of course they impact the outcome, but which of those do you think is unfair or antithetical to my point about the free market? I think the tax thing is a huge misconception that just isn't backed up by reality. The US still has a progressive tax system, even after taking into account the many rules (or the mysterious and nefarious "tax breaks"…

Top 1% pays ~15% of total federal income taxes. Your numbers ignore Social security which provides ~34% of total federal revenue and cap at 120k vs a minimum 465k to make it into the top 1%. It's also clearly income tax while 'income taxes' provide ~47% of the federal revenue.

PS: Social Security pays money for blind people who have never worked, it's in no way a just a 'retirement' fund and is simply general welfare under a new name.

Re: Explore Wealth and Income Inequality in the World Wealth and Income Database

#177

1. When everyone was a farmer, the difference between the best possible farmer and the worst farmer just wasn't that great. Maybe you're 2x faster at picking corn, or 3x better at hunting deer. But a few guys literally built a communication tool (WhatsApp) to be used by billions of people. So maybe in the old world you could pick 2x as much corn, but in today's world you can build 1 billion times the communication to…

No matter how large the pie is, we might question how it is to be carved up. The size of the pie doesn't answer the question of who gets to eat it. If it grows and grows, we still make a decision as to how to distribute that growth.

Re: Explore Wealth and Income Inequality in the World Wealth and Income Database

#178

1. When everyone was a farmer, the difference between the best possible farmer and the worst farmer just wasn't that great. Maybe you're 2x faster at picking corn, or 3x better at hunting deer. But a few guys literally built a communication tool (WhatsApp) to be used by billions of people. So maybe in the old world you could pick 2x as much corn, but in today's world you can build 1 billion times the communication to…

Part of the problem is that the inequality leads to behavior that protects the inequality. Disney passing lobbying for laws that will keep their work out of public domain despite how much they benefited from public domain. Drug companies lobbying to outlaw certain products that would help people but cut into profits. Enough inequality allows information control. Enough information control allows government control. O…

>Enough information control allows government control

Yet the solution to income inequality is to increase government control of the means of production via confiscatory taxes and redistribution?

So some advocate increasing government's ability to take money from you a gunpoint through taxes in order to prevent the government from being able to control people?

> Overall, if things were constantly getting better, I doubt people would care.

Poverty rates in the United States have been between 11 and 15% consistently since 1965. However, worldwide absolute poverty has dramatically dropped over the past 100 years. There are 3 times fewer extremely poor people in the world today than in 1970. So things are absolutely getting better -- dramatically better in fact.[1]

If people were unaware of how much "rich" people have and just looked at their own ability to buy food, housing and small luxuries, wealth inequality wouldn't even be a thing worth mentioning. Why should it matter what my neighbor has -- as long as I have what I need.

This whole "income inequality" cause is little more than Marxist class warfare rhetoric [2] rebranded for a modern audience: people are jealous that some people make more than them. So what. No matter what policies are enacted, poverty in the United States is practically unchanged since 1965 and vastly lower than it was in the 1950s when it was first measured. [3] The same crowd that cares about inequality also happen to be the same people who demand governments address climate change by essentially changing the balance of the means of production. Nobody cared about climate change in 1986. The first mainstream book on the subject wasn't even published until 1989. However, the industrial revolution started a low time before that. Apparently the climate change wasn't a catastrophic threat until someone wrote a book about it being a catastrophic threat? Were scientists simply sleeping for the past 100 years until some far-left journalist wrote a book about it? [4] But 1991, it started becoming a big thing. What happened between 1986-1991? Hint: something to do with the Soviets. Interesting more still is that the Palestinian cause is also supported by those who care about climate change and wealth inequality -- and the Palestinian cause was supported in a very big way by the Soviet KGB.[5]

Interesting how climate change, income inequality, poverty and even the Palestinian situation all feature the same "cure" -- the end of US-dominated, global capitalism. Convenient how that all fits together so nicely.

Fascinating how everything that was important to the Soviets has become the lightning rod of the left wing of American politics -- but those causes weren't even on the radar before 1998. Actual environmentalists were trying to save whales and the rain forests in the 1980s and not trying to restructure the entire world economic system. Anti-Capitalism didn't become a semi-mainstream idea until mid 1990s. I honestly miss the Greenpeace of the 1980s.

Should the goal actually be 0% poverty? Is that even possible? If you took 100% of the wealth of the worlds 1000 richest people and distributed it equally among the poor -- it wouldn't make a dent. let's say that the world's richest combined assets were worth $2 trillion. And there are 2 billion people living in extreme poverty, that gives each of them about $500. But that's it. Because there'd be no more wealth to redistribute from those rich people because it would be all used up. So you go to the next 1000 rich people and so on until eventually everyone has just enough enough money to buy a pregnant chicken and five carrots -- with no pot to cook it in since nobody's going to bother making anything since it's just going to get taken away.

[1] https://ourworldindata.org/extreme-poverty/ [2] https://www.jstor.org/stable/2562423?seq=1#page_scan_tab_con... [3] https://poverty.ucdavis.edu/faq/what-current-poverty-rate-un... [4] http://environment.harvard.edu/news/huce-headlines/social-mo... [5] http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-news-and-politics/103576/the...

Re: Explore Wealth and Income Inequality in the World Wealth and Income Database

#179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Communists were the root problem in that area, obviously they came about due to other forms of ostensible dysfunction, but they were the worst, possibly the worst ever ... and really the core of the problem. And FYI Cambodians were not fleeing bombs dropped near their homes by Americans, they were fleeing Communists who murdered 3 of 8 million, making it one of the worst genocides in history, easily comparable (o…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_United_States_s...

bingo.

Re: Explore Wealth and Income Inequality in the World Wealth and Income Database

#180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you said, while true, is one-sided. It omits that companies like Apple are the beneficiaries of large tax breaks that ipso facto function as subsidies (because Apple is the beneficiary of tax spending in innumerable ways). It also looks at different taxation rates for individuals as well, with a capital gain tax that's far lower than ordinary income tax rates, as one example. So "as a society" applies here, in t…

I would ask, what courts, tax laws, civil laws, etc are you referring to? Of course they impact the outcome, but which of those do you think is unfair or antithetical to my point about the free market? I think the tax thing is a huge misconception that just isn't backed up by reality. The US still has a progressive tax system, even after taking into account the many rules (or the mysterious and nefarious "tax breaks"…

The federal income tax is a small part of the annual taxes paid in the US, you aren't showing enough information to provide more than a guess about how fairly the tax system is working.
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