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Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

projekte.sueddeutsche.de

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Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#671

Post by dangerlibrary »

libertyEQ wrote: post #650
culturalzero wrote: post #636

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder how many of these comments are made by Apple's legal or PR team posing as normal people... Certainly they have the reach and resources for this kind of thing too. Rarely do we get to have a real public discussion on such topics without adulteration by these parties with personal motivations and associated power.

Your comment basically breaks HN guidelines by calling into question the motivations of all commenters that disagree with you. Some of us simply believe that taxing corporations makes little sense because companies set their pricing with applicable taxes in mind. Ultimately, only people pay taxes, so only people that have not fully considered the implications believe they are "sticking it to the man," when in reality…

Your comment asserts that corporate tax has zero impact on corporate profit. If you don't fully agree with that statement, you may want to consider whether you fully agree with everything you wrote.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#672

Post by slavik81 »

styx31 wrote: post #80

What annoys me the most is that, as a small company, I can't evade from my country tax system. I pay the taxes. All of them, at full rate. But there are these big companies which can afford to create offshore companies/holding just to evade some tax system, and lower their tax rate. So, what? The tax rate of a country is now "artificial", because it will never be applied to all revenues from all companies, because th…

> What annoys me the most is that, as a small company, I can't evade from my country tax system. I pay the taxes. All of them, at full rate.

This is a real problem in the US, too. The corporate tax rate is very high, but there's so many exemptions and deductions that few end up paying the headline rate. There's a lot of variation between businesses in what they pay.

Lowering the tax rate and simplifying the tax code could make it more fair in a revenue-neutral way.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#673

Post by libertyEQ »

specialist wrote: post #620
unixhero wrote: post #532

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is where you are wrong. A cannot be thought of as a "group of people". A company is a legal entity, which can do absolutely ANYTHING within the law. It, the corporation, will by default do everything in its power to maximize shareholder value and that is it. Beyond that, there's Corporate Social Responsibility, but of course that is downstream from the corporation's main objective, which is to maximize profits.…

Once upon a time, corporations were chartered, to better serve the public good. Our (USA) founding fathers suffered under the yoke of corporations (eg East India Company, Boston Tea Party) and were wise to limit their power. Then some yahoo slipped in some legal precedent declaring corporations were legally natural persons, weaponizing the 14th amendment. And here we are today pretending that corporations are super p…

~"Capitalism is the worst system ever devised except for all the others." ;)

Until we get to a Star Trek-like unlimited resources, it is the best way to allocate our resources to properly incentivize progress and innovation.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#674

Post by comstock »

styx31 wrote: post #80

What annoys me the most is that, as a small company, I can't evade from my country tax system. I pay the taxes. All of them, at full rate. But there are these big companies which can afford to create offshore companies/holding just to evade some tax system, and lower their tax rate. So, what? The tax rate of a country is now "artificial", because it will never be applied to all revenues from all companies, because th…

Why do you think you can’t? Have you tried? If you have a business that looks somewhat like Apple’s does (producing goods in China and selling internationally). I don’t think it would be very hard to keep revenue out of the US tax system.

I would guess you could setup an offshore company in a region with zero corporation tax and conduct the majority of international business via this? Moving funds back to the US is trickier, but then it is for Apple too.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#675

Post by ttoinou »

32hkwejr wrote: post #633
ttoinou wrote: post #621

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chomsky's solution? Moar state !

AKA Control of the society that is... 1) Openly documented 2) Viewable by all 3) Accountable to the people not the highest bidder Exactly as the Founding Fathers wrote and spoke of it? They were pre-capitalist, saw the origins of capitalist philosophy beginning, and wrote of their fears about where that will lead a country of free people; straight into the back pockets of the elite (remember the crown was essentially…

    Control of the society
What does it even mean ?

How do you make the government accountable, transparent and openly documented ? Mystery to me

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#676

Post by downrightmike »

slavik81 wrote: post #672
styx31 wrote: post #80

What annoys me the most is that, as a small company, I can't evade from my country tax system. I pay the taxes. All of them, at full rate. But there are these big companies which can afford to create offshore companies/holding just to evade some tax system, and lower their tax rate. So, what? The tax rate of a country is now "artificial", because it will never be applied to all revenues from all companies, because th…

> What annoys me the most is that, as a small company, I can't evade from my country tax system. I pay the taxes. All of them, at full rate. This is a real problem in the US, too. The corporate tax rate is very high, but there's so many exemptions and deductions that few end up paying the headline rate. There's a lot of variation between businesses in what they pay. Lowering the tax rate and simplifying the tax code…

It used to be much higher: https://bradfordtaxinstitute.com/Free_Resources/Federal-Inco...

If companies want access to the best market in the world, they need to pay to be there.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#677

Post by ctchocula »

freyir wrote: post #441
styx31 wrote: post #80

What annoys me the most is that, as a small company, I can't evade from my country tax system. I pay the taxes. All of them, at full rate. But there are these big companies which can afford to create offshore companies/holding just to evade some tax system, and lower their tax rate. So, what? The tax rate of a country is now "artificial", because it will never be applied to all revenues from all companies, because th…

We cannot expect companies to voluntarily pay more taxes than the minimum, while there are legal loopholes at their disposal. The solution may mean reducing the tax rate for all companies, closing the loopholes, and then enforcing the law. But that would require elected government leaders to put their jobs on the line (lowering corporate taxes sounds bad to many voters since corporations have been vilified, even thou…

Can you give a citation on "bipartisan support among economists"? All I have read seems to indicate economists are all in support for the other direction - that lowering corporate taxes at this moment is bad economics.

[1] http://larrysummers.com/2017/10/22/one-last-time-on-who-bene...

[2] https://www.cbpp.org/research/federal-tax/corporate-rate-cut...

[3] http://microeconomicinsights.org/benefits-corporate-tax-cuts...

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#678

Post by slavik81 »

32hkwejr wrote: post #633
ttoinou wrote: post #621

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chomsky's solution? Moar state !

AKA Control of the society that is... 1) Openly documented 2) Viewable by all 3) Accountable to the people not the highest bidder Exactly as the Founding Fathers wrote and spoke of it? They were pre-capitalist, saw the origins of capitalist philosophy beginning, and wrote of their fears about where that will lead a country of free people; straight into the back pockets of the elite (remember the crown was essentially…

If the founding fathers were concerned about government capture by the elite, why did they limit the right to vote to land owners? They basically decided that only the wealthy could vote.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#679

Post by libertyEQ »

Melchizedek wrote: post #591
jimbokun wrote: post #489

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you seriously look at the state of politics and business and tax evasion in 2017 and really believe most executives, even in Silicon Valley, are susceptible to "moral persuasion"? If they were, they would already be acting in the way you think they should.

True, but what then can stop this evil entity called Apple and all the rest of them? Only children and the very slow still believe in "democracy", which is obviously just another name for the rule of those who own the media and/or are rich enough to bribe politicians. What other recourse is left but the threat of violence to the physical individuals that in reality control the imaginary legal persons called corporati…

>Only children and the very slow still believe in "democracy", which is obviously just another name for the rule of those who own the media and/or are rich enough to bribe politicians.

As a citizen of the USA, this is quite a scary thing to read. We may not have attained perfection (or even satisfaction), but it is a process. Each iteration has ultimately improved the world and the underlying principles are sound. It's all about optimization priorities, and I'd prefer to optimize for liberty, not authority.

Government has a monopoly on sanctioned violence, and the only reason it is justified is because of democracy. "We the people," are the first words in the US Constitution.

If you want to give up on democracy, move to a dictatorship. The earth does not have to have the same forms of government in every country/state.

edit: Tell me what you are for, instead of what you are against?

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#680

Post by specialist »

libertyEQ wrote: post #673
specialist wrote: post #620

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Once upon a time, corporations were chartered, to better serve the public good. Our (USA) founding fathers suffered under the yoke of corporations (eg East India Company, Boston Tea Party) and were wise to limit their power. Then some yahoo slipped in some legal precedent declaring corporations were legally natural persons, weaponizing the 14th amendment. And here we are today pretending that corporations are super p…

~"Capitalism is the worst system ever devised except for all the others." ;) Until we get to a Star Trek-like unlimited resources, it is the best way to allocate our resources to properly incentivize progress and innovation.

The rhetorical trap we’ve fallen into is conflating capitalism with corporatism.
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