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Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

projekte.sueddeutsche.de

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Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#401

Post by pmlnr »

mrleinad wrote: post #14
wjnc wrote: post #8

Dear Herr Krach, thank you for your letter. I think you misunderstand how business works. Apple is a profit seeking corporation. Profits we make, we hope to distribute to our shareholders. Paying taxes is an obligation with which we comply, both to the letter and in spirit. We meet such obligations, but not nilly-willy. Our shareholders would not look kindly upon executives who pay more taxes than necessary. Avoidanc…

"Evasion of taxes is not illegal" Yes. Yes it is.

I wanted to say the same thing. It is.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#402

Post by DigitalJack »

styx31 wrote: post #80

What annoys me the most is that, as a small company, I can't evade from my country tax system. I pay the taxes. All of them, at full rate. But there are these big companies which can afford to create offshore companies/holding just to evade some tax system, and lower their tax rate. So, what? The tax rate of a country is now "artificial", because it will never be applied to all revenues from all companies, because th…

"afford to create offshore companies"

You can setup an offshore "shell" company in the virgin islands for $1500. It's not something you have to be a big super rich company to afford.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#403

Post by valuearb »

TrinaryWorksToo wrote: post #235
repomies691 wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So... Basically Apple is increasing the suffering by creating all those laptops and iphones? That is very difficult for me to grasp. Apple creates computers and phones which make peoples lives a lot better, and people are willing to pay for those. Why is the suffering increasing? I guess world would be a better place if apple would pay more taxes, but I'm pretty sure that world would be worse place without Apple, whe…

Think about it this way, if I had an objectively better phone than the iPhone I would go out of business because Apple keeps more of their money in dishonest tax schemes. They hurt innovation. And that money is supposed to go to governments to use, which it doesn't, hampering the ability for others to thrive. Now there's is less competition

Apple is the biggest taxpayer in the world. It pays every bit of tax it owes. It should be taxed less, not more. Corporate income taxes are corrosive to maintaining our society.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#404

Post by johannes1234321 »

improbable22 wrote: post #347
DomreiRoam wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think they are often engaged in illegal activities but it is difficult to prove it. A company and its subsidiaries are different entities and when you do an IP transfer between them where a huge set of patent and trademark is exchanged for 1 euros and then used back for millions, one of the company has been wronged. Try to do the same shenanigan with a LTD and yourself and you will very fast see what the IRS (or eq…

Maybe the problem is in trying at all to tax something you can't pin down, like this IP transfer between (say) Apple Germany and Apple US. I mean what should its value be? Clearly Apple Germany is nothing at all like an independent company importing phones from China to sell. Much of what they sell is the software, the image, the brand... these things don't have open-market prices. So who gets to decide what their pr…

This would mean that immaterial things won't have a worth in the book keeping way and can't be billed. In simple terms what happens is that Apple Europe, Inc. has to pay a lot for the license to use the Apple logo and trademark to Apple Paradise, Inc. Thus Apple Europe, Inc. doesn't have profits, while Apple Paradise, Inc. has all the profits. Now the value of the logo and trademark are artificial ...

What's needed are international agreements how to handle those licenses, that you can't simply push them to tax heavens, but tax has to be paid where they are created or used or whatever.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#406

Post by zajd »

nickpp wrote: post #277
zajd wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You really think the PC is a good example of something "created by a free market" not the result of the govt pouring millions into R&D in the decades previous?

Nobody's denying the contribution of the govt $$$ to the creation of the PC. But I've seen computers build by governments. They were slow, huge, power hungry, expensive behemoths. They sucked. We're a long way from there. And free market brought us all the way here.

What about the internet? The highway system?

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#407

Post by jamesblonde »

valuearb wrote: post #375
m12k wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed, the only sane solution to this is a massive overhaul of international tax law. Shaming companies just isn't a scalable solution in any way. There's a massive opposition against this both from multinationals and tax haven countries though - this article is a good way to start making it obvious to normal citizens that this issue should be on the ballot.

Eliminating corporate income taxes would be the best way to start, given it would benefit society immensely.

How would it benefit society? Reduced state income that could be used to invest in infrastructure and people? Will the companies invest that money with society's interest at best better than the govt would? I don't think so. What do Apple do with their money? They horde it, waiting for a windfall to bring it back to the States and pay low/no corporate tax on the repatriated profits.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#408

Post by ttul »

Tim Cook could be sued by Apple shareholders if he _didn’t_ pursue the most efficient organization for tax purposes. It’s actually his legal responsibility - not some evil thing he’s doing because he is a heartless capitalist.

If you don’t like what Apple is doing, don’t blame Apple. Blame government, and use the power you do have to make change happen.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#409

Post by sjwright »

dontreact wrote: post #383
valuearb wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be illegal and unethical for Apple to pay more taxes than it owes. That money doesn’t belong to Tim Cook, but to Apple shareholders.

Tim Cook has made statements in the past that they stick to the letter and the spirit of the law. The least they could do is report these tax loopholes: post them publicly to make it easier for the government to close them. Instead, they are kept a secret. Why do you think that is?

Okay, let's start there: pass a law to require companies to report these tax loopholes.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#410

Post by lovich »

josejuanisaac wrote: post #390
loceng wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These companies evading taxes are responsible for increased hardship and suffering of a society as well, leeching off of the nations they exist in, and being able to outcompete the honest organizations and people in them. The damages are far greater than the tax avoided. "They are doing it too" isn't a valid excuse either.

“They are doing it too” is legally a valid excuse. The way legal disputes get settled usually is based on the outcome of precedent legal cases and how they relate to the current case. Your moral outrage (and the outrage caused by paradise papers type reports) is just a failure to see the world for what it is. An ant can complain all day about the size of the mammoth, complain that it’s unfair that it’s got a fur coat…

Oh well, guess we should stop all attempts at improving society guys. Apple can do it, so they should do it, and we should stop discussing the matter.

Like goddammit man, the moral outrage is not there because people fail to see the world the way it is. It's there precisely _because_ people can see the way it is now and it's fucked up.

And paying it's engineers a high salary is enough of a payback to society? Did that cover the roads they ship their goods on? The international Navy that protects their supply lines from overseas factories? The education system which produced their engineers? All the other inputs they rely on and externalities they offload?

No it didn't, because once you get rich you get your own set of rules. Paying back what you owe is for the proles

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