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Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

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Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#151

Post by nickpp »

sfifs wrote: post #115
nickpp wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By default, big companies always get preferential treatment from governments. Open a mega-factory? They get tax cuts, cheap real estate, free utilities. Why? Those shiny new jobs look great on a politician's resume for the next election... What does the little business guy get? A letter of "don't forget to pay your taxes in full or else" It's time to accept the fact that governments are NOT a fair and impartial warde…

Those with wealth will always try to capture the system - whether its formal or informal. The natural state of any business is to try and become a monopoly because that maximizes rent taking ability - NOT competition. Practically the ONLY power able to stop monopolies from forming is the government. In absence of the government's ability to "meddle", businesses can and will cut deals with big competitors and squelch…

Monopolies are granted by governments. The free market has a natural solution to monopolies, it's called competition - startups.

Big Cos will always lobby governments to add rules and regulation to raise the barrier of entry on their market and thus reduce competition.

They, in fact, buy their monopoly from the government.

Solution? Take away the government's ability to grant monopolies.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#152

Post by pjc50 »

mtrn wrote: post #116
styx31 wrote: post #80

What annoys me the most is that, as a small company, I can't evade from my country tax system. I pay the taxes. All of them, at full rate. But there are these big companies which can afford to create offshore companies/holding just to evade some tax system, and lower their tax rate. So, what? The tax rate of a country is now "artificial", because it will never be applied to all revenues from all companies, because th…

Playing devils advocate here: > What annoys me the most is that, as a small company, I can't evade from my country tax system. I pay the taxes. All of them, at full rate. How about a startup providing "tax-optimization" for the masses? Keep a cut of the money saved: win-win. Or win-win-lose, if you include the state.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crickhowell-welsh-town-...

However, most of these techniques have a high fixed cost. For Apple paying $1m fixed cost to reduce the percentage tax to zero is economical, for a corner shop it isn't.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#153

Post by _acme »

styx31 wrote: post #137
akanet wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, it's more about familiarity with the system than work required to game them. I've met one-man operations paying effectively the same rate as Apple, they just know the legalese well enough to do it on their own.

All companies are supposed to be equals regarding taxes. If a part of them can trick this rule, then it is not fair and must be fixed. I agree that there is a part of entrepreneurship which include being able to understand the rules and laws and use them efficiently, but all these familiarities used to game the system are only valid if only a minority of the people use them. One people finding this trick is ok, but b…

All companies are supposedly equal in doing business, but some manage to compete better than others. Taxes are just another area of competition.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#154

Post by n4r9 »

fastball wrote: post #127
mindw0rk wrote: post #4

The point about Apple hiring best graduates who got their education mostly free of charge cause of all the tax payers really shift my mind about the whole tax-avoidance thing.

Yes but the moral burden is not on Apple, it's on those graduates. If you got your education for free and now you make a fat salary from Apple, it's your job to give back. Not Apple's.

Why is the burden not on both? Both Apple and the graduates are profiting from the subsidised education.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#155

Post by jaymzcampbell »

fastball wrote: post #127
mindw0rk wrote: post #4

The point about Apple hiring best graduates who got their education mostly free of charge cause of all the tax payers really shift my mind about the whole tax-avoidance thing.

Yes but the moral burden is not on Apple, it's on those graduates. If you got your education for free and now you make a fat salary from Apple, it's your job to give back. Not Apple's.

Unless Apple are running a break-even charity they are making money on each employee - which I would guess is due to a combination of the employees skill (gained in some way through this "free" education) and the business as a whole. In what way is there no obligation on Apple the company to pay back to society? One of the whole points of being a full time employee (as opposed to contracting under your own company) - is that the company pays taxes on your behalf to the state.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#156

Post by akanet »

styx31 wrote: post #137
akanet wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, it's more about familiarity with the system than work required to game them. I've met one-man operations paying effectively the same rate as Apple, they just know the legalese well enough to do it on their own.

All companies are supposed to be equals regarding taxes. If a part of them can trick this rule, then it is not fair and must be fixed. I agree that there is a part of entrepreneurship which include being able to understand the rules and laws and use them efficiently, but all these familiarities used to game the system are only valid if only a minority of the people use them. One people finding this trick is ok, but b…

Oh, sorry, I'm not saying it's _good_ that this is the case, just that you'd be surprised by the number of small companies pulling this kind of shit too.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#157

Post by fsloth »

nickpp wrote: post #99
styx31 wrote: post #80

What annoys me the most is that, as a small company, I can't evade from my country tax system. I pay the taxes. All of them, at full rate. But there are these big companies which can afford to create offshore companies/holding just to evade some tax system, and lower their tax rate. So, what? The tax rate of a country is now "artificial", because it will never be applied to all revenues from all companies, because th…

By default, big companies always get preferential treatment from governments. Open a mega-factory? They get tax cuts, cheap real estate, free utilities. Why? Those shiny new jobs look great on a politician's resume for the next election... What does the little business guy get? A letter of "don't forget to pay your taxes in full or else" It's time to accept the fact that governments are NOT a fair and impartial warde…

The charitable interpretation is that large companies create demand for services in the community where they are located, thus functioning as an economic stimulus. The demand may entice smaller companies to co-locate in the same neighborhood.

With this interpretation it would make sense to entice large corporate entities to arrive and/or stay put.

Of course, the path from economically motivated kick backs to pure cronyism is not too long, so cynicism is always warranted.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#158

Post by pjc50 »

nickpp wrote: post #151
sfifs wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those with wealth will always try to capture the system - whether its formal or informal. The natural state of any business is to try and become a monopoly because that maximizes rent taking ability - NOT competition. Practically the ONLY power able to stop monopolies from forming is the government. In absence of the government's ability to "meddle", businesses can and will cut deals with big competitors and squelch…

Monopolies are granted by governments. The free market has a natural solution to monopolies, it's called competition - startups. Big Cos will always lobby governments to add rules and regulation to raise the barrier of entry on their market and thus reduce competition. They, in fact, buy their monopoly from the government. Solution? Take away the government's ability to grant monopolies.

This is a reductionist view that ignores economies of scale, real barriers to entry, the actual requirement for regulation for most markets to function, not to mention basic safety.

Or are you campaigning for the abolition of patents as a concept?

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#159

Post by Maarten88 »

thomasahle wrote: post #38
LiamMcCalloway wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Countries can unilaterally have taxes based on the share of total company profit generated in the country, rather than just profit in the country.

That doesn't prevent companies from moving all profit generation out of all countries but the lowest taxed.

Good luck Apple selling iPhones in Jersey. They'll need to sell everyone hundreds of iPhone X's there to keep profits up.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#160

Post by Synaesthesia »

adventured wrote: post #48
jbaudanza wrote: post #36

If we want the rich to pay more taxes, it would be simpler to just raise taxes on the rich individuals. Things get more complicated when you try to tax an abstraction (a corporation).

Everybody else has already long since figured that out of course and are cutting their corporate income tax rates significantly, while half the political sphere in the US is still arguing about taxing corporations more. Meanwhile, in Sweden: 22% statutory corporate income tax rate; Finland: 20%; Denmark: 24.5%; Norway 27%. Those horrible socialists!

But you have to look at the effective rate after deductions, which are very significant in the US.
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