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The GOP Tax Plan Will Destroy Graduate Education

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71–80 of 99 posts

Re: The GOP Tax Plan Will Destroy Graduate Education

#71
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The default tax rule in the U.S. is that any benefit you receive, in any form, is earned income and taxable. Layered atop that default rule are a long list of exceptions, which are generally categorized as (1) exemptions and (2) deductions. If you attend a Ph.D program where the advertised tuition is $30k per year, and you get a tuition waiver (or w'ever it's called), the default tax rule says that you still earned i…

Getting rid of exemptions and deductions is also "simplification" and "reform". I mean, I agree that the plan is focused on paying for corporate and high end tax cuts, but how do you do tax simplification if special interests are all off limits?

Special interests is just code word for other people's deductions.

The fact of the matter is that the 1986 tax reform _already_ tremendously simplified the tax code. Much of the cynicism about the modern tax code is latent from the 1986 reform effort, when politicians were drumming up support for very difficult changes. Before 1986 individuals could take deductions on interest payments, for example, just like businesses; after 1986 individuals were only left with the mortgage interest deduction. On the other hand, the corporate code was also tremendously simplified, and like I said did away with esoteric technical requirements rife with loopholes. People were willing to give up their exceptions because corporations lost a lot of theirs, and everything at least felt more equitable.

I would argue that the major thrust of the current reform effort is neither simplification nor a quid pro quo. Even with 30 years of accreted deductions, things are incomparable to the pre-1986 system. The major thrust of the current reform effort is simply to shift more of the tax burden from corporate taxes to individual taxes.

I don't know why, but I'm sort of ambivalent about all of this, frankly. Perhaps partly because a significant number of of my yearly deductions are business deductions, which I know the GOP won't touch. I think it's dishonest to sell the current reform as simplification, because while some aspects are being simplified, that's neither the underlying motivation nor design. The thrust of the current reform effort is simply to cut corporate rates and replace that lost revenue with revenue from personal income taxes.

So, for example, personal exemptions are being folded into the standard deduction and sold as a "simplification". But the only reason for doing that is to hide the fact that such a combined deduction will be less than the current standard deduction+exemptions. Those things are separate for a simple reason--the standard deduction is fixed per household, but the personal exemption is per household member. It could have equally been simplified by getting rid of the standard deduction and increasing personal exemptions, but doing that wouldn't have raised revenue. And that's why it's disingenuous to sell this as simplification--the primary purpose is to generate revenue from personal income taxes to offset reductions in corporate income taxes.

There are many reasonable arguments for supporting the GOP tax plan. But people should be wary of rationalizing things in a way that causes them to support or reject the plan even though it fundamentally disagrees with their personal policy preferences.

EDIT: Quote from a 2011 review of the 1986 reform:

  "[The 1986 t]ax reform was not only revenue neutral but also
  roughly distributionally neutral: This tax reform was not to
  become an occasion for significantly shifting the
  distribution of income tax burdens among income classes. So
  distributional neutrality, along with revenue neutrality,
  became guiding principles for the legislation."
Source: http://www.taxhistory.org/www/features.nsf/Articles/066C3B71...

Re: The GOP Tax Plan Will Destroy Graduate Education

#72
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since you acknowledge the increases in the EITC are unhelpful to these underprivileged students you are then saying it is acceptable to raise taxes on the underprivileged portion of a largely privileged group because it's statistically hard to tease out the difference. That's...heartless? Balancing it out in other members of the lower income class doesn't really help, IMO. You are penalizing people who are underprivi…

> Since you acknowledge the increases in the EITC are unhelpful to these underprivileged students you are then saying it is acceptable to raise taxes on the underprivileged portion of a largely privileged group because it's statistically hard to tease out the difference. That's...heartless? No, it's utilitarianism. A tax break that disproportionately benefits the educated and well-off shouldn't be preserved just beca…

Okay, I think I understand your position now and I agree it's self-consistent, even though I disagree.

Still, good luck to the US remaining a scientific leader with this change.

Re: The GOP Tax Plan Will Destroy Graduate Education

#73
post #41

Under the logic of the tax code, tuition waivers should obviously be taxable. The University is basically paying for graduate student labor with a vastly below-minimum wage stipend, along with a very valuable free education. "In kind" benefits (such as the use of an apartment) provided by an employer are generally taxable. That doesn't mean tuition waivers should be taxed. It just means you have to be intellectually…

People in graduate programs tend to come from privileged backgrounds but themselves are not privileged in terms of wealth. I fail to see how taxing somebody making 25k in pre-tax income with a 15k bill is sticking it to the wealthy. The proposed changes also do not care at all what background you come from. They hurt the kid who came from nothing to go to grad school just as much.

The question is whether you really derive ~50k/yr of value in tuition that these waivers cover as a PhD student. I think I took like five classes my entire career in grad school. Hardly seems worth the ~250k that I was "granted" by the university.

Re: The GOP Tax Plan Will Destroy Graduate Education

#74

Sensationalism at its finest. At some point we have to demand some sort of integrity from our media. This is getting out of hand. The tax plan will force schools to alter graduate tuition accounting. But "Destroy" really?

As a former Ph.D. student and now graduate, I would have to say the title is is not sensationalist at all. This aspect of the tax plan will raise additional funds (to at least partially offset the magnitude of the revenue reductions). Where do you think those funds are going to come from? They come from the graduate students who will now be taxed on these tuition waiver amounts. It is extremely facile to just waive a…

> I would have to say the title is not sensationalist at all

It's appalling that you don't find the title extreme. No way will a tax plan completely destroy higher education as we know it.

> Where do you think those funds are going to come from?

Its simple. The schools are going to start including the cost of taxes when covering the grad students tuition costs. For example, if tuition is 50k + a tax of 10k. The schools will cover the 60k for tuition for a full ride. No school with a conscious is going to slap a grad student with a sizable tax bill.

Re: The GOP Tax Plan Will Destroy Graduate Education

#75
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you elaborate more on what is going on at universities? Are you saying that grant money comes in for research, but gets funneled back to the university through tuition?

The default tax rule in the U.S. is that any benefit you receive, in any form, is earned income and taxable. Layered atop that default rule are a long list of exceptions, which are generally categorized as (1) exemptions and (2) deductions. If you attend a Ph.D program where the advertised tuition is $30k per year, and you get a tuition waiver (or w'ever it's called), the default tax rule says that you still earned i…

If this goes through, there will be some huge adjustments for graduate students and the research universities that depend on them. With no phase in, this could really hurt current students who thought that they would be getting $15k a year to live on and now have almost nothing, if they have to pay tax on the $30k the university is "giving" them in tuition. If you are have way through a degree program what do you do? Even more student loans?

Re: The GOP Tax Plan Will Destroy Graduate Education

#76

Sensationalism at its finest. At some point we have to demand some sort of integrity from our media. This is getting out of hand. The tax plan will force schools to alter graduate tuition accounting. But "Destroy" really?

As a former Ph.D. student and now graduate, I would have to say the title is is not sensationalist at all. This aspect of the tax plan will raise additional funds (to at least partially offset the magnitude of the revenue reductions). Where do you think those funds are going to come from? They come from the graduate students who will now be taxed on these tuition waiver amounts. It is extremely facile to just waive a…

Why is this in the tax bill? Congress has complex rules around passing permanent tax cuts that raise the deficit. The GOP is attempting to present a tax plan that has very large tax cuts and an equal amount of new revenue (e.g., less deductions, less exemptions). The complex rules around deficit-neutral bills don't make provisions for future changes in behavior negating a passed bill. So Congress would like to take away this exemption to help pass their current bill; universities will change their behavior to keep the profitable graduate system in place.

Re: The GOP Tax Plan Will Destroy Graduate Education

#77
A similar analysis has been circulating mailing lists at MIT over the past few days and all the grad students are already freaked out by this.

As someone who is in the process of applying to phd programs and has already made peace with the lost earnings this really sucks. If this provision makes it into the tax code I will have to strongly reconsider my plans, as will many other students.

Re: The GOP Tax Plan Will Destroy Graduate Education

#78
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't follow your line of thought. How is the government picking up the tab? The government isn't making any payment back to the institution.

I believe what Overtonwindow meant was that the cost of education has gotten out of control primarily because whenever the government guarantees debt ( cough housing cough ) it creates a perverse incentive where the lenders profit by bigger loan values and the schools profit by jacking up the cost of their service for which the loans are issued. Essentially, there is far less of a check and balance on the price of th…

The government also caps that debt they issue to $32k. Lots of students find themselves out of money by the third/fourth year if they didn't get scholarships, and are left hoping that Mom & Dad are going to be willing to cosign for a private loan.

Re: The GOP Tax Plan Will Destroy Graduate Education

#79
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Since you acknowledge the increases in the EITC are unhelpful to these underprivileged students you are then saying it is acceptable to raise taxes on the underprivileged portion of a largely privileged group because it's statistically hard to tease out the difference. That's...heartless? No, it's utilitarianism. A tax break that disproportionately benefits the educated and well-off shouldn't be preserved just beca…

Okay, I think I understand your position now and I agree it's self-consistent, even though I disagree. Still, good luck to the US remaining a scientific leader with this change.

Is your logic here that major research universities would maintain the same fee structure and allow less qualified wealthy students to assume the spots lost by students who can't afford the tax change?

Universities compete for research talent. Won't they simply adjust their fee and stipend structures to accommodate this change?

Re: The GOP Tax Plan Will Destroy Graduate Education

#80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, during your PhD there were no tax consequences to the university forgiving your tuition, because it was given special consideration. This would change that. Ostensibly valuable students will be able to arrange for the university to bear the burden of the taxes, but it will be a change and it is likely that large institutions will use it to their advantage.

No but from an accounting perspective I don’t get how this works. Phd students often do no use any of the univeristy’s real resources. The marginal cost of a phd student is often zero or negative, due to the work they do. There are no platonic costs to charge them, especially if they are passed quals and aren’t taking classes any more. Sure they use their advisor’s time, but that’s unaccountable and variable. So the…

So the university could just adjust tuition downward for programs for which everyone gets a scholarship anyway.

Yes, this is what would happen. They probably couldn't adjust it down to zero as that would trigger a legal challenge from the IRS but they could very likely make it much lower than it is today.

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